022: Creating and Validating a Spiritual Abuse Assessment with Lianna Chong

Can you really ever know when you’ve experienced spiritual abuse by church leaders and organizations? Victims and survivors are so often manipulated and gaslit that they question their own memories and experiences.

This is the work Organizational Psychologist Lianna Chong is setting out to complete. Through her work with the Spiritually Abusive Leadership & Climate Survey, she is hoping to have quantifiable and scientifically validated research and hard data.

The survey measures areas like abuse of power, emotional manipulation and abuse, defend and attack (based on DARVO and gaslighting), and psychological safety.

This research will be completed in two rounds, with the first running from Nov–Dec 2024, and a second round in early 2025. The minimum goal is 300 completed surveys, with a full goal of 600.

Would you be willing to complete the survey? It’s all scaled multiple choice (strongly agree – strongly disagree), and takes about 10-15 minutes to complete. It’s fully anonymous (with a few demographic questions), and all online. You can complete it on your phone or computer.

[ take the Spiritually Abusive Leadership & Climate Survey ]

Get the full show notes and links here. 📄

Guest Spotlight 

Lianna is an organizational psychologist with experience in ministry and secular organizations. She is passionate about helping teams and leaders create environments where people can bring their best self to work. She provides training and consultation on compassion fatigue, burnout, organizational change, and psychological safety. Recently, Lianna has pivoted her focus to helping people recognize spiritually abusive leadership and promote healthier church cultures.

Lianna has a Master of Arts in Organizational Psychology, a Master of Theological Studies, and is a Certified Fearless Organization Scan (FOS) practitioner. In addition to consulting, she has served as Adjunct Faculty at William James College teaching quantitative and qualitative assessment.

Website | Substack | Instagram

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Transcript

Lianna Chong 0: 0:00

00 This project has come out of a very painful experience. There was a lack of mutual understanding of what spiritual abuse is and looks like, how to know if it’s really happening, and how to properly assess for this instance of spiritual abuse. So that’s what led me to want to create a survey that looks specifically at leadership behaviors in a spiritually abusive setting. Specifically, what does spiritually abusive leadership look like? What are some of the ways that an entire system can, unknowing Lee, sort of conspire to keep stories silent, to prevent the truth from coming out.

Brian Lee 0: 0:02

46 Welcome back to the Broken to Beloved Podcast. This is episode 22. I hope to provide practical resources through compassionate conversations to grow in trauma awareness, set up safeguarding practices to prevent or avoid future trauma and move toward healing and wholeness. Today, I have a special episode for you with Lianna Chong. She’s an organizational psychologist with experience in ministry and secular organizations. She’s passionate about helping teams and leaders create environments where people can bring their best self to work. She provides training and consultation on compassion, fatigue, burnout, organizational change and psychological safety. Recently, she’s pivoted her focus to helping people recognize spiritually abusive leadership and promote healthier church cultures. Liana has a Master of Arts in Organizational Psychology, a Master of Theological Studies, and is a certified Fearless Organizational Scan practitioner. In addition to consulting, she has served as adjunct faculty at William James College, teaching quantitative and qualitative assessments. I know this all sounds like a lot, but I promise it’s going somewhere, and we have a special request for you at the very end of the episode, so be sure to stick around for now. Here’s my conversation with our new friend, Liana. Liana, welcome to the podcast.

Lianna Chong 2: 0:06

00 Thank you, Brian.

Brian Lee 2: 0:08

01 It’s so good to see you again.

Lianna Chong 2: 0:10

02 Great to be here today.

Brian Lee 2: 0:12

04 So for everyone who’s listening, who probably don’t know who you are, give us a little background.

Lianna Chong 2: 0:14

09 Sure. My name is Lianna Chong, and I’ve been working as an Organizational Psychologist to help teams and organizations create healthy, positive cultures. So a lot of what I do is I go in to a team that might not be functioning as well as it could, and I do some assessment, or I do some training with them. I’ve also done some research and training around compassion fatigue and secondary trauma. And in the beginning of my career, I studied Theology, so I have a degree in theology from Boston University School of Theology.

Brian Lee 2: 0:16

48 How did you get started as an organizational psychologist? What does that mean?

Lianna Chong 2: 0:18

52 That is a great question. So, Organizational Psychology is the intersection of human behavior and human systems. So what that’s about is understanding how people behave, both as individuals, what motivates them, what makes them resistant to change, and how they organize into human systems and structures. So that’s all about. Looking at when we create an organization, how can we make it the best version it possibly can be for the people inside it? And I deeply believe in human thriving and making organizations places that we want to get up and go to work to do what we’re called to do. And how I got into this is because I was studying compassion fatigue, which is the emotional effects of being in a caregiving role, and the ways that you take on all of these burdens as you’re caring for other people. And what I realized as I was researching and reading and developing some interventions around that is that there was a pretty good amount of stuff out there on self care or individual practices, but that can only get you so far. If you wake up in the morning and you’re walking into an organization that is tense, or you’re have a leader who just makes you on edge all day. There’s only so much you can do as an individual, taking care of yourself when the environment is the problem. What do you do? So that’s what led me to get my degree in organizational psychology, because I wanted to answer that question, and I wanted to help people figure out how to improve our systems.

Brian Lee 4: 0:22

43 Wow, I think you just told most of our stories in the community of I’m not in a position to change anything. So what do I do? So as an organizational psychologist, what kind of tools do you find useful when you go into these systems to talk. To systems, leaders, whatever it is.

Lianna Chong 5: 0:24

02 Absolutely. So one of the most important tools that I have been trained in, and that I believe in, is called Organizational Assessment. What that means is you’re gathering data, you’re gathering facts, and you’re trying to understand what is actually happening here, and how do we fix it or improve it? So a lot of times, what you’ll see is, you’ll talk to a leader, you’ll talk to one or two team members, and they have one perspective on what the problem is. But unless you look at the whole picture, unless you talk to everyone who is involved and look at it from a systemic perspective, you may not be finding the actual root cause of the problem, and therefore, whatever intervention or steps that you are taking in that organization, it won’t work. It won’t solve what is trying to be solved if you haven’t achieved a correct diagnosis. It’s similar in the medical field, right? If you go in with one symptom and your doctor misdiagnoses you, and then they prescribe something and you start a treatment, it may not work because they may not have the right diagnosis. So those kinds of assessment processes and tools look like things like interviews, so sitting down with individuals, asking them questions about their team functioning, it looks like surveys and quantitative data, getting a sense of what people’s experience is in the organization, or their culture or their climate, and then taking that information and presenting it back to a team and involving them in the process of making sense of their own reality and what to do about it.

Brian Lee 6: 0:28

50 How often do you run into resistance? Because I’ve been part of these kinds of assessments several times, and then parts of all different kinds of consulting processes where you revisit your mission and vision and values and all these kinds of things. And so often, what I’ve experienced is you have this whole team of people, which almost always is bigger than the consultant suggests. They say, Hey, you should have eight to twelve people at the table. And then the pastor wants to include 25, and then the whole thing gets watered down and slowed down and all these things. And then at the end of the day, the teams have spent now six months to a year or more, doing all of this assessment, doing this really deep work of exploring these things and redefining and coming up with common language. And then the process ends with the pastor deciding, well, I don’t really like the way this is going, so we’re gonna do it this way instead. Have you run into, with assessments, with the work that you do with these teams and these systems and structures, do you see that process followed through to the end? Or how do these things get implemented, or what typically changes in those kinds of situations?

Lianna Chong 8: 0:32

00 That’s a great question, and I’m sorry to hear about your experience. That’s very unfortunate.

Brian Lee 8: 0:34

06 Thank you.

Lianna Chong 8: 0:36

07 It is unfortunately, that does happen quite a lot. At the end of the day, whoever is leading a team or an organization, they may have the final say on moving forward. And so what I try to do as a consultant is really build up my partnership with my client, and working with them, they’re helping me define the scope of our work together and what we want to look at. And then as bumps come up along the way, as they inevitably will, it’s processing that information with the team, with the leader. So when you have resistance, what I’m asking is what’s behind the resistance, and most often it’s because there’s something people have to lose. Every change involves some form of loss, and so there may be fears or anxieties around the change. There may be specific ideals or vision that people have that they don’t want to let go of. So until you identify and name some of those things and bring them out into the open, that resistance will continue to be there and to build and the only way through it is by engaging with it.

Brian Lee 9: 0:39

25 That’s really good and helpful. So we connected because of your work in Organizational Psychology, but specifically on a project you’re doing now. Give us a little background and tell everyone what it is you’re working on, because I’m kind of really excited about it.

Lianna Chong 9: 0:41

41 Thank you, Brian. I’m excited about it too. So this project has come out of a very painful experience that I have watched and walked through with an entire community and my church. And what happened was there was a lack of a mutual understanding of what spiritual abuse is and looks like, how to know if it’s really happening, and how to properly assess for this instance of spiritual abuse. So what I saw happen in my own community was that people became divided. It became about taking a side, either you’re supporting the leadership or you’re against them, and all sorts of narratives developed around either side. And what happened was this tremendous rift and now division in an entire community of believers because we didn’t have enough tools, enough language, enough frameworks and understanding of due process when the issue of spiritual abuse comes up. And I’ve also seen a lot of that confusion and conflict creating sort of a dust storm, and so it becomes really hard to see what the actual underlying issue is, as we were talking about before having that correct diagnosis is everything in a system. People became confused, they became discouraged, they became divided. They became tired of all of the conflict and going through it over and over again, it became a he said, she said thing, or thinking of it in an interpersonal conflict, or maybe a management style issue.

Lianna Chong 11: 0:45

31 So what I was seeing, from my perspective, was the core issues were being obscure and lost in the process of all of this conflict, and one of the issues that I saw come to light through that was that, unfortunately, people’s stories of spiritual abuse weren’t enough. People would try to explain what had happened to them. They would try to give examples. And to me, that sounded concerning, but to some people in the church, there were ways that they understood that, as you know, strong leadership or just a growth area that the pastor had, and it was very hard for them to sort of make their case about spiritual abuse. I think, as many victims know, sadly, when you’re gaslighted, when you’re dealing with somebody who is manipulative and willing to change their story, it’s very hard on you to sort of prove that this is really happening.

Lianna Chong 12: 0:48

40 So that’s what led me to want to create a survey that looks specifically at leadership behaviors in a spiritually abusive setting. Because what I realized as I started catching up on some of the research around spiritual abuse, and I would pick up one book after another, is that there’s patterns here that spiritually abusive leaders conform to. There’s specific behaviors that we can recognize this by, right? And so taking it from, you know, some of the tools and work that’s out there now, which is understanding your personal experience of spiritual abuse, which is really important, but now looking at it from a systemic perspective, from an organizational lens, and trying to describe and help people see specifically, what does spiritually abusive leadership look like? Specifically, what are some of the ways that an entire system of a church or Christian organization can, unknowingly sort of conspire to keep stories silent, to prevent the truth from coming out? And so I’m hoping that through this survey, we can highlight some of those specific instances for people so that as they’re navigating situations in their churches or in their organizations, and they’re thinking to themselves, oh, man, one person said this, but another person said that, and I don’t really know, it’s hard to tell they can look at tools like this and get a more objective lens for whatever is happening in their situation.

Brian Lee 14: 0:51

23 So you’re observing these different patterns. You’re noticing and you already have this background in Organizational Psychology. So you’re looking for the patterns. You’re looking for how the structures have been set up, whether to help or to harm. You kind of see these things when you walk in and so based on all of those things you’ve created, this survey that’s right. That allows people to go in and, I guess, measure or assess what kind of environment they’re coming out of. Is that correct?

Lianna Chong 14: 0:53

51 That’s correct. So some of the themes and categories that I’m looking at are abuse of power. Using people, using their position or their spiritual authority to control people or to silence people or to avoid accountability, looking at emotional manipulation and emotional abuse. So these are ways that somebody might make us feel guilty or make us feel humiliated or belittled, and it’s designed to keep them in power and to keep their narrative the one that people believe.

Another theme I’m looking at is the defend and attack based on DARVO, which is a common response that you see from abusive individuals: 0:55

Defend, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender. So essentially, what they do is they’re defending themselves fiercely. They’re attacking the people who raise questions or concerns, and then they’re reversing the victim. So they’re actually saying, I’m the victim here. I’m the one being mistreated, being maligned, and they gained sympathy through that. But all of those behaviors are deflection. All of those behaviors are designed to prevent people from actually believing or listening to those who are raising legitimate concerns about their behavior. And finally, the other aspect I’m looking at is psychological safety, which has to do with the ability to ask questions, to raise concerns, to admit mistakes without a fear of a negative repercussion. I have a lot of theories about the relationship between psychological safety and spiritually abusive environments that I am going to be testing in an academic sense. But what I’m hoping to get out of all of this is to say we need to take a step back and look at the kind of cultures we’re creating in our churches, the kind of leadership that we value, that we look for and that we promote in our churches. And does this actually reflect who Jesus was? Does this actually reflect what he teaches us, because I think by and large, we’ve missed the mark.

Brian Lee 17: 0:59

25 Thank you for sharing all of that. That’s a lot of really good information. Tell us what you’re hoping to do with the survey.

Lianna Chong 17: 1:01

31 So first, what I’m looking to do is to statistically validate the survey in two rounds. And what that means is that the first round, I’m putting a large number of survey questions out there, and I’m going to try to get as many responses as I can to identify which items most accurately represent the construct of spiritual abuse in leadership and in organizational climates. So once I get people to take this pilot survey, then we’re going to narrow down the final survey items and have maybe 15 to 20 or something around that range, and that would be the final survey that’s been internally validated through the data. The second round of testing is then to double check to confirm that those items are reliable, that they actually measure what we’re saying. They measure that they’re consistent, and they generate consistent results a second time around, I also want to look at the construct of spiritually abusive leadership and a couple of other things, including psychological safety and including trauma scales. So part of the reason why I realized I wanted to create this survey assessment was because there is not very much out there yet in terms of how we measure and quantify or identify spiritual abuse, there’s a couple of surveys geared towards those individual experiences of abuse, but without a reliable measure that’s been validated, that has data behind it, it’s impossible to then do the next level of testing and analysis that I’m really excited about, which is to look at the relationships between spiritual abuse and some other things. Like, let’s take trauma, for instance, I think that’s a huge one, because I think that people don’t believe that some of these behaviors of spiritually abusive leaders are actually abuse. They think that that’s sort of an exaggeration, or they have something in their mind that is abuse, and this. Isn’t it? But if we can prove that someone who’s experienced spiritually abusive leadership also has a high score for trauma PTSD or traumatic stress, or some of these other validated measures that are out there, then we can actually demonstrate empirically that spiritual abuse is abuse. I’m hoping that down the line that becomes more recognized, that becomes more accepted, because that’s one of the biggest hang ups that I’ve seen personally, is that unless the abuse crosses over into a category that’s more recognized and accepted, such as sexual abuse, financial abuse, again, people they don’t believe that it’s actually abuse, and that’s such a problem in terms of diagnosing it. But also for people who are victimized and affected by this, it’s a second layer of harm that we’re adding to these people.

Brian Lee 20: 1:07

59 For people who may not be familiar with academically validating things, what does that mean? And why is it so important for surveys?

Lianna Chong 21: 1:09

05 That’s a great question. So anyone can come up with a survey, right? You can create questions, you can get people to answer them. They’re all over the internet, but an academically validated survey means that it’s gone through a certain level of rigor and testing so that there’s evidence behind it. In other words, you’ve run this survey a number of times. You’ve done different statistical analyzes that show that this survey actually does measure what it says it measures, and it measures it reliably and consistently every time you administer this survey. So part of the survey development process is soliciting feedback from experts in the field, which I’ve done on the original items, so making sure that people who are in this field, who are studying this and working with this day to day, they’re looking at the items that I’m putting forth, and they’re saying, do they agree that this is a potential marker of spiritual, abusive leadership, or not? So I’ve already gone through that phase. So you can think of it as the process of developing a survey that is bringing together all of these different inputs and perspectives, from experts, from victims, even from people who haven’t experienced toxic leadership in churches. We need those people to fill out the survey too, because we want to see if the opposite results are true for them. In other words, if they’ve had a healthy church experience, then they should be scoring low on these measures of spiritual abuse, and they should be scoring high on psychological safety and low on trauma. So it’s really bringing all of those constructs together to say this data actually measures what it’s supposed to, and we can count on this data. We can use this survey, and we can trust that, by and large, what it tells us is true.

Brian Lee 23: 1:15

18 That’s good, that’s important. And so where do you go to get something academically validated?

Lianna Chong 23: 1:17

25 Well, you have to do a lot of work, and so part of what I’m doing right now is in the process of these different rounds of pilot testing, I’m going to be writing up this process and putting it into a journal to be published.

Brian Lee 23: 1:19

43 And just real quick, when you say a journal, you don’t mean like your journal at home, that you write in.

Lianna Chong 23: 1:21

47 Good point. You’re right, an academic, peer reviewed journal, which, again, it’s another layer of rigor that other people who are experienced in these areas, in the in these fields, they’re looking at my work, and they’re validating it, or they’re critiquing it, and then they’re saying, yes, this is worthy of being published, being put out there for other people to use and build off of it. So going through that final step of publishing is a huge step in terms of creating more consensus around the item and the survey that you’re putting out there.

Brian Lee 24: 1:24

29 There’s a lot of thought and research that went into this. Obviously, your background has helped to do that. We spoke before, and you mentioned you’ve run it by other organizations and people who have lots of experience in this field, and they’ve kind of given you the green lights like this. Looks great. Go ahead and start, start getting the data. How long does a survey like this typically take to validate?

Lianna Chong 24: 1:26

52 That’s a good question. That’s going to depend on how many people we can get to fill out the survey and how. Quickly, I am hoping to do round one of validation by the end of this calendar year, so in the next two months. Okay, then to launch round two of my study in early 2025 then that will take maybe another couple of months. Now in terms of publishing the article, that could take a year or two years, but once I have the data and the statistical analysis, I can start putting this survey out there for people to use, because even though it’s we’re waiting on those final steps of publishing the data is already there. So the more people we can get to take this survey now, the quicker we can get this out there for folks to be using and applying as again, as they’re encountering questions around what spiritually abusive leadership looks like, or whether it’s happening in their church.

Brian Lee 26: 1:30

05 Do you have a number in mind that you’re hoping for of people to fill it out?

Lianna Chong 26: 1:32

08 I would love to get 600 this first round.

Brian Lee 26: 1:34

12 Okay.

Lianna Chong 26: 1:36

12 That’s fairly high. That’s higher than you actually need. We would need maybe 300 or more. Okay, but the more people you get, the stronger your data analysis is absolutely so it’s more is always better.

Brian Lee 26: 1:38

27 Yeah, well, and so people understand, because I do a lot of reading, I do a small amount of research, mostly just following down footnotes and original sources that get cited in these other books and materials that I read. But when we hear about people saying, hey, Pew Research says this, or a Gallup poll said this, and we can when there’s data that comes out that we want to be able to trust, this is the kind of process that these surveys go through. Is that right?

Lianna Chong 26: 1:40

55 No.

Brian Lee 26: 1:42

56 No. Okay, so good, so separate that for us.

Lianna Chong 26: 1:44

59 So there’s different kinds of surveys. What I’m doing with an academically validated measure is the highest level of testing and of rigor. I love hearing that possibly you can possibly go through when you’re developing a survey item. So because I’m going through all of the steps from initially compiling stories and research, both qualitatively and through articles and books out there, to develop those items, to then have them reviewed by experts in the field, to then go through two levels of testing, this is not what you see in, like, a Gallup poll or some of these other surveys. I would say, you know, they’re for different purposes. First of all, a Gallup survey, it’s a good quick way to get a pulse check on something that’s relevant to people, culturally or personally. So if you want to get people’s opinions or people’s experiences can provide some good information about on that, and you don’t necessarily have to go through this whole validation process to do that, but by going through this validation process, we’re talking more about diagnosing a phenomenon versus just getting a sense of people’s opinions or people’s experiences overall. And when you’re talking about diagnosing something, you want to make sure that what you’re putting out there is accurate and will yield the correct diagnosis. So for example, I don’t want to put a survey out there that somebody could take who is experiencing spiritually abusive leadership and get a score that says they’re not similarly I don’t want to put something out there that somebody thinks they’re being spiritually abused, but maybe it’s something else that’s happening and it’s not abuse, and I don’t want my survey to tell them it is when it Isn’t.

Brian Lee 28: 1:48

59 That’s really, really helpful. Thank you. So highest level of rigor and highest level of all the things, the process, the reviewing and all of these things, and at the end of the day, you will have a validated academic survey that can scientifically measure spiritual abuse in an environment for the person who’s taking it. Does that sound right?

Lianna Chong 29: 1:50

20 It will measure spiritually abusive behaviors of leaders organizations, yes. So I think the the individual experience of spiritual abuse is a separate but related phenomenon. In other words, you may have had an experience, you are wrestling with some of those effects and feelings, and you need to know whether it is spiritual abuse. So then I would recommend one of the surveys out there, like Karen Roudkovski recently published the Spiritual Abuse Assessment, and that’s looking at it from a personal perspective. What I’m doing is looking at this question of dying. Spiritual abuse through a behavioral and an organizational perspective. In other words, what are the specific behaviors that leaders are doing that are spiritually abusive? What does it look like? Because if we can define that, we can work on it, yeah, if we can show leaders, this is how specifically your actions are harmful, then they have an opportunity to look at that feedback and to say, these are things that I want to grow in. These are things that I want to do better if they make that choice, right?

Brian Lee 30: 1:53

34 So the big question that’s being answered by filling out the survey is, “Have I experienced spiritually abusive behaviors?”

Lianna Chong 30: 1:55

41 Exactly. By leaders and organizations.

Brian Lee 30: 1:57

44 Okay, so, and I think it’s safe to say that 99% of our audience is answering that question, yes, but to have that academically validated, I feel like would be so validating, because so many times they’ve been gaslit to say, No, you’re just imagining that, right? Or no, that’s not how I experienced that person. Or that’s not that, you know, that’s not what they intended. Is often a way it’s twisted. So to have a resource out there that just says, Hey, you’re not crazy and you’re not alone, I imagine, will be a big sigh of relief in one way. And then once you have that moment, it’s the yeah, but what now? So then it’s taking the survey, having it validated, writing the academic paper, and then, like you’re saying, pursuing the next step of what do we do with this information, and how do we use it as a resource to prevent this from happening in the future, to provide training so people know what kind of environments breed this kind of behavior, whatever it is, I feel like there’s so much that could be down the line for it. Like you said, you’re hoping you need a minimum of 300 people to complete the survey, hoping for 600 by the end of this year, and then around two at the beginning of next year. It’s just an online survey. Is that right?

Lianna Chong 31: 2:01

58 That’s right. So I’ve created a web page for it, and it’s called the salcsurvey.com or the SALC survey, as I like to call it, and that just stands for Spiritually Abusive Leadership and Climate Survey. Climate is another term we use for just an organizational environment or the culture that we’re creating as teams and as systems.

Brian Lee 32: 2:03

23 Is the survey anonymous or do people need to provide information?

Lianna Chong 32: 2:05

26 It is absolutely anonymous, and that is key to protecting the people who have been harmed. There are some demographic items that we ask for at the beginning of the survey, but they’re all optional to fill out, so people aren’t comfortable identifying certain demographics. They do not have to.

Brian Lee 32: 2:07

44 Great. I really want this to do well. I would love to see the results. Obviously, when it’s ready, after however many rounds. We will provide the link for the survey in the show notes for people to find. We’ll email it to people and just have it posted for people. Again, looking for at least 300, hopefully for 600 people to fill this out so you can have this assessment ready to go. We’ll also share the link for that Spiritual Abuse Assessment that you referenced, because I think that’s also sounds interesting, if you are looking for a way to quantifiably measure and validate what you’ve experienced and just or even if you’re just curious to see what kind of questions are here, there’s no pressure to complete the survey if you don’t feel like you’re ready to absolutely but if this is a step that you feel like you want to do, I would really encourage you to go check out liana’s page, fill out the survey, help her out in this first round. We’ll probably talk about it again when you’re ready for round two next year. Any other things you want to share about the survey, about the work?

Lianna Chong 33: 2:10

45 Thank you, Brian, thank you for taking the time to listen and to think critically, as I have been doing, about how we can do better. And so anyone who is willing and able to participate in the survey, just know that you’re offering a contribution that’s going to go way beyond yourself. I hope, as Brian has said, that this survey provides some validation, some insight into your own experience that may also be painful or difficult to come to terms with so I will be providing resources at the beginning of my survey for people as they’re navigating all of the emotional complexities of their experience. But ultimately, what we want to do is we want to be able to show our churches, our organizations and the world what good, healthy leadership looks like, and what it doesn’t?

Brian Lee 34: 2:12

43 Yeah, that’s important. Thank you, Liana. I’m excited to get this out there. Hopefully you get a good response, and I’m sure we’ll be following up soon.

Lianna Chong 34: 2:14

50 Thank you, Brian. I look forward to it.

Brian Lee 34: 2:16

53 That was fascinating, and I know there’s a lot of academic terminology in there and maybe stuff that. And quite understandable, but the point is this, we want you to take her survey. It takes about 15 to 20 minutes to complete. It’s all online and completely anonymous. You can find the links in the show notes at brokentobeloved.org. Subscribe or follow to the show to get new episodes automatically. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a rating or review and share with your friends. As a 501c3 nonprofit, our work is made possible by our generous donors. If this has been helpful to you, consider joining us today at brokentobeloved.org/support. Thanks so much for taking the time out of your day to listen. I hope it’s been helpful. Here’s to moving toward healing and wholeness. Together. I’ll see you next time.