018: Recovering from Purity Culture with Dr. Camden Morgante

CW: While not explicit, this episode will talk a lot about sex, sexual ethics, and beliefs around sex in and outside of marriage.

If you grew up in church in the 90s and through the 2000s, it’s highly likely you were brought up in purity culture. If you’re here, it’s likely you’ve found yourself deconstructing and disentangling your thoughts and beliefs around sex and sexuality ever since.

Dr. Camden Morgante has done the work of identifying 5 myths around purity culture, and we get to talk about each them, the harm they caused, and how we can work to reform and reconstruct a sexual ethic that allows us to find healthy and authentic ways of embracing and expressing ourselves within the bounds of our current beliefs.

Join us as we discuss overcoming shame, bringing our full and healthy selves into healthier relationships, navigating singleness and dating in (and out of) the church, and more.

Get the full show notes and links here. 📄

Episode Resources and Links

• Pure by Linda Klein on Bookshop | Amazon
• The Great Sex Rescue by Sheila Wray Gregiore on Bookshop | Amazon
• Episode 5 with Cait West

Guest Spotlight

Dr. Camden is a licensed psychologist with nearly 15 years of experience as a therapist and college professor. She owns a private therapy practice and is a writer, speaker, and coach on purity culture recovery, egalitarianism, and faith reconstruction. Her first book, Recovering from Purity Culture: Finding Freedom and Reclaiming a Healthier, Values-Based Sexual Ethic, publishes October 15 by Baker Books. Dr. Camden lives in Knoxville, Tennessee with her husband and their daughter and son.

Website | Instagram | Threads | Facebook | Substack

Recovering from Purity Culture on Bookshop | on Amazon

—————

We need your help. Your gift of just $25 will make a big difference and help us continue this work. Donate today.

—————

Sign up to receive our weekly Podcast Newsletter with new episodes, updates, exclusive discounts, and more!

Subscribe using your favorite podcast app:
Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Amazon Music | YouTube

Leave us a rating and review on Apple or on Spotify. This all helps us to grow and continue providing quality content for you and our community of listeners.

—————
As an Amazon and Bookshop.org affiliate, I may make a small commission at no extra cost to you.

Transcript

Camden Morgante  0:00  

Many times, my clients will say, like, there’s something wrong with me, or I must be weird because I’m not able to enjoy sex, or my body has this trauma response to sex, even though I’ve never been through sexual assault or trauma. And I’ll say, You know what? That is normal, because the research says that people coming out of purity culture can have similar trauma response in their bodies as sexual assault survivors, and it is wild, but it’s also very validating for people to hear that, because then they know I’m not weird, or I’m not alone, or there’s not something wrong with me. 

This is a whole generation of Christians that were affected by this because of the way we were taught abstinence only sex education, even in the public school system, and so it’s a whole generation that was affected by it and that are all trying to heal from it.

Brian Lee  0:43  

Welcome back. I hope to provide practical resources through compassionate conversations to grow in trauma awareness, set up safeguarding practices to prevent or avoid future trauma and move toward healing and wholeness. This is episode 18. I’m your host, Brian Lee, and I’m so glad you’re here today. 

We’re talking with Dr. Camden Morgante about life after purity culture. I want to give a short content warning that while we don’t talk about anything explicit, we will obviously be talking a lot about the topic of sex, sexual ethics, beliefs around sex in and outside of marriage. So just want to give you a heads up. 

Dr. Camden is a licensed psychologist with nearly 15 years of experience as a therapist and college professor. She owns a private therapy practice and is a writer, speaker and coach on purity culture, recovery, egalitarianism and faith reconstruction. 

Her first book, Recovering From Purity Culture: Finding Freedom and Reclaiming a Healthier Values Based Sexual Ethic, publishes October 15 by Baker Books. Dr Camden lives in Knoxville, Tennessee with her husband and their daughter and son.

And now here’s my conversation with our new friend, Dr. Camden Morgante. Camden, welcome to the podcast.

Camden Morgante  1:54  

Thank you, Brian, thanks for having me. It’s good to see you again.

Brian Lee  1:56  

You too. I’m excited to have this conversation. It is a first but it is important topic, and I think unfortunately, an all too common topic in our environments, right? So, purity culture, deconstruction, sexual ethic. How did you get started on this topic? What got you interested?

Camden Morgante  2:16  

I think what got me interested was my own personal experience with growing up in purity culture, and just seeing how so many of the promises I was made in purity culture turned out to be empty and false promises in my case, and then starting to see in my work as a therapist, starting to see people struggling, even when they had followed all the purity culture rules, or waited until marriage or just they were still struggling in their intimacy or in their faith. 

So I started to just put the pieces together that even though I thought purity culture was true in this great thing as a teenager, maybe it’s not so much. Maybe it had some unintended consequences that we need to examine here. 

And so I just started reading what had already been written. This was back in like 2017 that I first got the idea to write about purity culture. So it’s been several years, and not a lot was being said at that time.

But then Pure by Linda Klein came out in 2018 that was the first real big expose about the purity movement. And, you know, ever since then, there’s been a lot more conversation about it, and I started writing on social media and speaking on podcasts and things like that and about 2020 and so it continues today to be a topic of conversation, and I imagine it will continue to be for a while. Unfortunately, you know, something that we have to keep talking about and keep healing from.

Brian Lee  3:30  

And 15 years of experience as a therapist and college professor. I mean, Doctor Camden Morgante. What is your doctorate in and what led you down that road?

Camden Morgante  3:40  

It’s a Doctorate of Psychology, and yeah, what led me down that road was originally just wanted to help people with their relationships. I feel like relationships are central to giving our lives meaning and purpose and connection, and I’ve always been passionate about helping people have healthy marriages, especially. And so that got me interested in it. I decided to get my doctorate in psychology as soon as I graduated from undergrad. 

So that’s why I have so many years of experience at a pretty, fairly young age still. And yeah, and was able to be a professor for several years too, so getting to work with college students and see what they’re going through, yeah. So that’s kind of what led me down that path, and I feel like that has given me a unique perspective on purity culture, because I have the personal experiences of growing up as a millennial woman in the culture, and then I also have the professional experience of doing this work, day in and day out every day as a therapist.

Brian Lee  4:32  

Yeah, and you share a lot of those stories in the book, which I found really helpful. It helps both validate the experiences that I feel like I had growing up same in that purity culture environment, and it also opens your eyes to, oh, this is how other people were living, or this is what other people were thought. It helps provide a window, I think, to empathy and compassion for a lot of people.

I think for people who may not be familiar with purity culture, who are not part of this world, be like, Oh my gosh, is this really what I...yeah, and rather than just being dismissive or calling people crazy, it’s like this was a very legitimate part of growing up. I mean, it was seared into our brains, into our psyches, into the way we did life. And like you say, it’s like, it affects every part of your life, the way you dress, the way you carry yourself, the way you talk, the way you interact, like you’re saying how important relationships are. It affected our relationships so profoundly, so I’m excited to jump into it.

Camden Morgante  5:25  

Yeah, I wanted people to feel validated when seeing the stories in the book. But like you said, I hope that people who aren’t as familiar with purity culture, or maybe who had a positive experience of purity culture, can also learn a lot from the book, because everybody had may have similarities, but we all had unique experiences. And certainly through my clients, I see unique experiences, or just unique types of harm that I didn’t suffer. And so for people who think why was this bad, like this was good for me, I want them to also open their mind, maybe to seeing like how others were affected and really the trauma that purity culture can cause.

Brian Lee  5:58  

I appreciate that too well. And you know, you write the book from a distinctly Christian, faith based perspective, and at the same time, I think you make it really clear, it’s like, I’m not telling you what to do. I’m not trying to tell you how to make your decisions or what choices to make. I want to present some options, some facts, my personal beliefs, and then leave that agency and choice up to you with how to move forward, which I really appreciate.

Camden Morgante  6:23  

Thank you. Yeah, that was a tricky needle to thread, I guess?

Brian Lee  6:27  

I can’t imagine.

Camden Morgante  6:28  

Yeah, I wanted to not be prescriptive, because I did not want to give readers another book telling them what to believe, right, how to live, because we’ve gotten that for decades. You know, we’ve read those books I wanted to present. You know, here’s some stories and examples of how I’ve deconstructed and reconstructed my sexual ethic and faith. Here’s some examples of how others have done it. Here’s some questions to ponder, or some skills or tools to help you figure out what you believe, but not tell you what to believe. So yeah, it was very tricky, but hopefully it accomplished what I set out to do.

Brian Lee  7:01  

I think it did, so congratulations. I also appreciate the approach you take to the book of constructing and defining purity culture, deconstructing the myths and then reconstructing based on what we learn. How do I move forward with maybe a new ethic, maybe the same ethic, maybe just slightly tweaked ethic, whatever it is. 

And obviously the meat of the book, I think, is those five myths of purity culture, and I would love to walk through them, just for people who may not be familiar again, or people who have been through it but just never knew how to put words to it. One of the first steps, I think, to healing or finding wholeness after some kind of spiritual abuse, is learning how to name our experiences and give language to it. So would you help us by giving language to the myths of purity culture, and then we can talk about them one by one. You know, whether it’s in the moment or down the line, I can come back and ask questions, but...

Camden Morgante  7:50  

Sure. In my research and just all the purity books I read when I was a teenager, I kind of distilled all of those teachings down into these five myths and gave them names, which does provide some language, so that when you read something or hear something, even now, when we see sermons from from some pastors or we we read things in books, we can easily identify what myth it is. And then I spend some time describing what are the harms and effects of those myths, and then what is ways that we can rebuild and move forward from those myths. 

So the first one I call the Spiritual Barometer Myth that our worth, identity and purpose is tied to our virginity, especially for women, but also for men in different ways, and we get a lot of pride and judgmentalism from that.

The second myth is the Fairy Tale Myth, the idea that if you follow all the rules, you’ll have a fairy tale marriage, you’ll find the one, and that God will bless you and give you the desires of your heart. And I share in the book, that was the myth that affected me the most and led to a period of faith, deconstruction and disillusionment in my faith.

The third myth is the Flipped Switch Myth, which is very recognizable. This idea that as soon as you get married, you flip a switch and sex is going to be instantly pleasurable, easy and wonderful, as long as you waited, if you didn’t, then you’re Damaged Goods with it, which is the next myth that you’re going to be broken, damaged and have just pieces of your heart instead of your whole heart, to offer to your future spouse. 

And then the Gatekeepers Myth, which is setting us up for inequality between men and women, that women are the gatekeepers of men’s sexuality, responsible for setting boundaries prior to marriage and then responsible for being constantly available to meet their husband’s sexual needs after marriage.

And so, yeah, I spent a lot of time talking about the harm of each of those myths, and again, like what, what is the truth and a new perspective that we can replace that with?

Brian Lee  9:35  

Thank you. I think it did such a great job distilling because there were so many, so many books, in what the early 2000s probably is when they started, and there were just so many, so many, so many, so many books, or tape series or sermon series or whatever they were about, this is how you keep your heart pure. And almost always it feels like you’ll know way better than I do. It seems like that’s how it was framed of keeping your heart pure. Not necessarily your body pure, or your sex life pure, your thoughts pure. And I think that’s that spiritual barometer. That’s right, because if you could remain sexually pure, the rest of your spirituality will be just fine.

Camden Morgante  10:12  

Yeah, it really made your walk with Christ or your faith all about your sexual purity, all about, you know, how far you’ve gone, how many times you’ve masturbated, you know, things like that. Rather than about, are you loving and serving Christ? Are you following God? Are you loving your neighbor? You know, just those discipleship kinds of things. Like our youth groups became very focused on just sexual purity, as that was our only discipleship. You know, there wasn’t like, how do I grow an authentic connection with God. So that’s what I feel like was really missing from my upbringing. 

You know, I write in the book that my entire faith was built on virginity, and I didn’t know, how can I disentangle those things, and how do I have that authentic connection with God, apart from the teachings of purity culture, it became really entangled at the time.

Brian Lee  10:59  

Well, and you write that, it sets up a works based religion, right? That “seeks to ensure blessing and prevent pain through moralism.” And it was, it was just so works based, and like you said, so very tied to that Damaged Goods Myth of by the way, if you do mess up, or, God forbid, something happens to you when someone abuses you through no choice of your own now you are forever damaged goods.

Camden Morgante  11:23  

And that that’s why I say that shame is the universal experience of purity culture, because you can see from that myth, especially the effect is shame for people who were not virgins when they got married, or, like you said, who were sexually abused. But even if you aren’t, there’s still so much shame about our sexuality that it’s this dirty and bad thing, or it’s this for men, sometimes it’s seen as like this, this unruly thing that can’t be controlled, you know, that controls you instead of you being in control of your sexuality or of your body and your desires. So purity culture was just an ethic of shame, a sexual ethic of shame, and it takes a lot of work to to heal from that, as I see with myself and my clients.

Brian Lee  12:04  

Same. And you share a lot from you know, Brene Brown and Dr. Curt Thompson, who both write a lot about shame. And I like that you differentiate between guilt and shame, and how shame is also healed relationally, in connection with other people.

And again, you tell stories of clients or people that you’ve worked with who years, sometimes decades, into their marriage, still carry shame around their sex life, even after they feel like they’ve held up their end of the bargain. So I think I want to jump to that one, the Flipped Switch Myth, right? That hey, sex before marriage, bad, sex after marriage, great.

And the the cognitive dissonance and the mental gymnastics that you have to go through when suddenly you have millions of young Christians. Because, let’s be honest, most of them are getting married young, because this is what they’ve been waiting for their wedding nights, like, finally, I get to have sex and they show up. It’s like, what do we do...

Camden Morgante  12:57  

Right? Yeah, because...

Brian Lee  12:58  

...let alone have a great time.

Camden Morgante  13:00  

Yeah, there was very little practical sex education. And so when you’re just told it’s just automatically going to be easy because you waited, and that’s not reality that does lead to that cognitive dissonance, as you said, but also intense shame, because what’s wrong with me that I’m not enjoying sex in my marriage when I waited, when I held up my end of the bargain, where’s God’s end? You know that “I’m supposed to have this easy, blessed marriage and sex life.”

And so those are some of the hardest and saddest stories for me are the clients that I work with that say. “we were the poster children for purity culture. You know, we courted, we didn’t even date, we didn’t even kiss till our wedding day. We got married at 20, and now, 20 years later, we’re still struggling in our marriage. We’ve, we’ve never really enjoyed sex, or it’s just constantly been this battle or struggle between us and we can’t quite figure it out, and it feels like this huge burden when we want it to be something that’s enjoyable.” And so those, yeah, those are some of the hardest clients, just hardest stories to hear.

Brian Lee  13:53  

Well, and you say it, you know, it sets up that disconnect and disappointment, right? That I’ve been waiting, I’ve been waiting, I’ve been waiting, and it’s finally here, and now we can’t even enjoy it, or for so many women and men who still feel the shame after it’s like I was taught my entire life that this is a bad thing, and how am I supposed to enjoy it now? Because I still carry this shame or this sense of dirtiness, or I had to cover up my whole life. So now to be naked in front of someone just feels completely foreign or weird. It’s like it just never feels right, no matter how right. It’s like all this stuff. So for people who feel like they are dealing with that sense of shame, what is something that they can do to move not just away from it, but to recognize it and to find a way through it to a healthier way?

Camden Morgante  14:36  

Yeah, I think recognizing the difference between shame and guilt and where that shame comes from. And I believe shame is not from God. God may use healthy guilt or conviction at times if our actions are not aligned with our values, but shame is more about we’re failing to meet some cultural standard, and we risk social disapproval or rejection be. Because of it, and so being able to distinguish that and recognize the signs of shame in yourself, and recognize that this is not from God, he doesn’t want you to be in the shroud of shame in your sexuality forever, but really being able to make the connection with your body. 

So it’s not enough to know in your head, well, sex is a good thing now that I’m married or, you know, God doesn’t want me to feel shame, like I just said, but it’s another thing to be able to experience that in your heart and in your body through healthy sex in your marriage. So I spent a lot of time in the book, and, you know, with my clients, trying to help them get that mind, heart, body and soul aligned, so that you’re not just knowing in your head what the truth is, but you’re really living it out in your body and feeling in your emotions too. 

And so that that’s something tricky, I can’t really just distill into one answer on a podcast, you know, but there I give a lot of exercises in the book for how to start doing that and some practical tools. But it really is a process of living out those new beliefs. So if you’re like the example you gave of you feel shame, and you know discomfort about being naked with your spouse, because you were always taught this body shame and to cover up. 

And then your new belief is that that is a healthy thing to do in marriage. Then you want to act that out with your body and fight against that shame. So that’s just one example of how to start doing that.

Brian Lee  16:19  

And I appreciate the the fully embodied approach, because that’s part of what I’m learning is has to be the way forward, that we can’t continue to separate our thoughts from our feelings from our actions or behaviors, and that they have to be integrated and embodied and whole. 

And I again, it’s like if you’ve been carrying this shame from the moment you’ve been learning it however young you were, at least in middle school, if you went to youth group or in church through your high school years, and then however long you were single as a young adult, you’re not gonna undo years of shame, possibly decades of shame overnight. 

So just to be gracious to yourself and gentle and compassion, it’s like this is going to be a process and kind of a thing of hope. I think here is, if you are in that committed relationship, that it’s again, also not something that you have to figure out overnight as well, that you have the time to figure it out. And if your partner is there with you to say, Hey, this is now that we have words for this, now that we have language for what kind of has damaged us or hurt us or changed our thinking, and we know that this is not what we want to carry going forward. How do we do it together? So it’s not all on me or all on you, but it’s on us together to figure this out moving forward, right?

Camden Morgante  17:32  

Yeah, and I think that’s an antidote to shame, is to feel like we’re in this together, whether that’s with your spouse or partner, or whether that’s with a group of friends or a group of other people who grew up in purity culture, who are working through it to know that you’re not alone, and it’s not it’s not a me or you problem. It’s an us problem. 

That’s what I say in sex therapy a lot to my couples. And I think the same thing with purity culture, you know? Many times my clients will say, like, there’s something wrong with me, or I’m I must be weird because I’m not able to enjoy sex or I have my body has this trauma response to sex, even though I’ve never been through sexual assault or trauma. And I’ll say, You know what? That is normal, because I see that in my clients. The research says that people coming out of purity culture can have similar trauma response in their bodies as sexual assault survivors. And it is, which is wild? Yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s wild. But it’s also very validating for people to hear that, because then they know I’m not weird, or I’m not alone or there’s something wrong with me. This is a whole generation that of Christians that were affected by this, millennials in particular, I make the argument because of the way we were taught abstinence only sex education, even in the public school system. And so it’s a whole generation that was affected by it, and that are all trying to heal from it.

Brian Lee  18:49  

Yeah, it is. Well, and I say wild, not in a, necessarily in a crazy way. But it’s just like to recognize the power of words and of teaching to our kids that like we carry this way into our adult years, and just to hear that like you’re saying would be so incredibly validating. It’s like, oh, I’m not crazy. Oh, there’s not something wrong with me. It’s not, because to have that kind of a physical response to something that you were taught and believed for so long, man, I just, I just feel, I feel for those people.

And it’s like, and I know I mean, the work that you do, you’ve dedicated your life to, it’s like to helping people find a way through that. Then get to the other side of it. Okay? So, Spiritual Barometer, Flipped Switch, Damaged Goods. 

Let’s talk about the Fairy Tale Myth and man, how many times I think we still hear it today, right? That if you will follow these rules, if you continue to live in this works based religion, then you will get your fairy tale ending, and maybe, like, what? Half a percent of people ever actually get it, and even then, it doesn’t work out the way they think, and it sets up this sexual prosperity gospel.

Camden Morgante  19:50  

Yes, yeah. So I’m not the one who came up with that term, but I think it’s, it’s so fitting for what purity culture was, because we know the prosperity gospel. Most of us know that that’s not true. You know, we don’t. We know that there’s not this direct correlation between how much money we give to the church and how much money we’re going to be blessed with, or, you know, our health, like there’s not this direct correlation between those two things. But yet, with purity culture, somehow we bought into that. We bought into this direct correlation of, if I stay a virgin, then I will get these blessings. 

And that is what affected my faith to the point of deconstructing it in my 20s, is because I did follow all the rules of purity culture and found a lot of pride in that the spiritual barometer myth definitely affected me there too. And I thought I was going to marry my first love, who I dated for three, almost three years in college, and when we broke up, it was just devastating, not only devastating, you know, relationally, but also spiritually devastating to my faith. Because I was like, How do I reconcile this? 

And everybody, at some point, we have to reconcile the fact that we have pain and suffering and God is good, you know, we all have to kind of wrestle with that, those questions, and there’s not always, you know, good answers for that of why? Why would God allow me to go through this pain when I quote done everything right? Yeah, so that was kind of what I had to wrestle with in my 20s and and that’s why I say purity culture affected my faith the most. I say it affects faith sexuality and relationships. For me, faith was the biggest piece that was affected.

Brian Lee  21:20  

Well, and it puts so much unnecessary pressure on those relationships. Like even friendships, even platonic friendships, like, Oh no, I don’t want them to think that this right, or I don’t want them to get the wrong message. Or I think I’m falling I mean, how many youth group kids or just teenagers in general, it’s like, oh, I think I’m falling for this person because they think, but this, but I shouldn’t, because you know XYZ, or if you do finally land a date which turns into a boyfriend or girlfriend or whatever it’s like, then purity culture, for me, was like, such a am I gonna marry this person? Why am I dating? What’s the purpose of this thing? Is like, and then every date becomes a potential. I don’t know. When am I supposed to say, I love you? When am I supposed to ask the question? When am I? Like, how do we plan?

Like, oh, I’m just in, like, you hear about all these weird, crazy first date people who come out of evangelical spaces or purity culture spaces that are now trying to date online or just meet, quote, unquote regular people who don’t carry this kind of baggage with them. It’s like, on the first date, this guy asked me, like, what we would name our kids, yeah. And yet, in this culture that was completely normal.

Camden Morgante  22:24  

Yeah, and my single clients all struggle with, how do I date? You know, getting in their late 20s, 30s, 40s, and trying to figure out, how do I date? Because I was only told how to court and I was told that I was going to get married young to my first love, and that didn’t happen. And so how do I navigate this life of dating? 

You know, hard for a variety of reasons, but just lacking that, I guess, blueprint for what healthy dating could look like, that makes it even harder. So it does set up really high expectations, a lot of pressure. 

And for those that did get married young to their first love, I interviewed several women who were divorced for the book, because I wanted to include and understand that perspective. All of the women I interviewed got married like around 20 to their first love and got divorced within five to 10 years. 

And of course, some people it does work out and they have happy and healthy marriages, and that’s wonderful, but for the people that it doesn’t, I mean one, one woman I interviewed told me, like we were told to find someone who was a Christian and who was saving themselves, and that that was enough. And frankly, that’s not enough, she said. And so these people were not taught we weren’t taught healthy relationship skills. We weren’t taught how to be healthy emotionally ourselves, or how to look for a healthy part. 

And when you don’t know, even know who you are at age 20, I don’t know how you can bring your full, healthy self to a relationship, so it really sets people up to either struggle in their marriage, or possibly their marriage to not work out.

Brian Lee  23:48  

Yeah, that’s right. Well, I also appreciate how much time you spend talking about sexuality and singleness, whether it is singleness by choice or circumstance. Of like, I’ve just never been on a date, I’ve never had a serious relationship, or I was married, and now I’m divorced, or I was married now I’m widowed. So what does that mean for my life? Am I also now damaged goods? Am I also because I’m no longer, quote, a virgin? What does that mean for me in future relationships? Right? So I really appreciate the time you spend there, too.

And the final myth, this Gatekeepers Myth, which is just so uneven and so patriarchal, right, that women are the gatekeepers of men’s sexuality. And you talk about Sheila Ray Gregoire, and this obligation sex marriage is like, Hey, before marriage, make sure you don’t tempt, make sure nothing progresses after marriage, meet his absolute every need and all the damage that’s done in that culture. You talk about the Duggars. You talk about all these other things, you know, I think of every man’s battle, and all these other books that I know I read when I was growing up. So talk to us about gatekeepers.

Camden Morgante  24:44  

Yeah, that myth just sets us up for so much inequality, because women often suppress their sexuality and suppress any sexual desires before marriage, because they are gatekeeping, because they’re responsible for putting the boundaries and managing like you know how far. Are we going? Do I need to stop him? Are we getting too aroused? And it’s hard to turn that off once you’re married. 

And so a lot of my female clients struggle with staying in their bodies and noticing their own arousal and pleasure, so that inhibits them sexually. And then for men, it can set up some entitlement, you know, that sex is, oh, yeah.

And I argue in the book, sex is not a need. It is important, but it’s not a physiological, biological need. You can live without sex. You do need connection and attachment and intimacy, which I define as anything that makes you feel close and connected to someone else that does not have to equal sexual intercourse.

And so it sets men up for some entitlement and really, some deficient relational and intimacy skills, you know, just like not really knowing how to have intimacy in other ways, how to experience closeness and connection in other ways, or deficient no sexual skills, also, because there was no sex ed, but just, you know, expecting sex to be easy and not realizing that, especially for women, sexuality is very complex, and taking the time to learn about that, learn about your anatomy and the sexual response cycle, and it really harms both men and women. And one, one person I interviewed said “purity culture makes me angry for what it did to women, but it makes me sad what it did to men.” And I liked that quote a lot of just sad how it dehumanized men too, and how it affected them.

Brian Lee  26:25  

Yeah, I appreciated that quote too, and I think it just lets so many men off the hook. And still does today, like we see the effects of it today, of men who are accused of sexual abuse or rape, or any of these things. And just somehow, not somehow, but through all of these systems that we’ve put in place, it’s like, oh, well, it wasn’t his fault because, or, oh, but what was she wearing? Or did she say no, you know?

And it’s just it’s so one sided, and it’s so uneven, and we see the damage that’s being done. And so I appreciate the time and the care that you take in that section with the gatekeeping myth, of of spelling it out, of balancing the equation just a little bit. And I think just for men to know, it’s like, listen, take ownership, right? It’s like you do have control. It’s, I mean, self control is a fruit of the Spirit, for a reason. It’s like you have control, like you can acknowledge what your eyes are looking at, you can acknowledge what your brain is thinking or what your emotions are feeling or what your body’s wanting to do, and then you exercise little self control after that. 

And I think, you know, I’m still thinking about, I had a conversation in a recent episode with Aundi Kolber about fawning, and this idea that fawning is an advanced trauma response, that it’s something that we do after we’ve learned that fight doesn’t work and flight doesn’t work. And for me, I immediately thought of all the times that I fought, and I think of people who have been through sexual abuse or who have just been in purity culture relationships. It’s like, well, I don’t know how to say no, or I don’t know for all these people, women primarily, but men too, it’s like, who were in a imbalance of power in a relationship and were abused by someone and didn’t know how to say no or try to but it didn’t matter, or didn’t work, or their job was on the line, or whatever it was.

And there’s so much more compassion for people in that position who have been through those things and be like, listen, first of all, sexual abuse is never your fault that it happened to you, and I’m sorry that it did. And so again, working through the shame that you carry when you’ve been through purity cultures like, well, now I’m damaged goods, and now no one will want me, right? And because he was the man, it wasn’t really his fault, because he can’t help himself and all these things.

Camden Morgante  28:37  

Yeah, I think the Gatekeepers Myth at its, at its extreme, leads to rape culture. And I talk about in the book how purity culture, rape culture, modesty culture, courtship culture, these all carry the same underlying foundation of patriarchy that when we set up inequality between men and women and we reinforce these gender stereotypes, it leads to all these other toxic cultures in our church.

And so yeah, if you think a man needs sex and he can’t control himself and he’s visually stimulated, then that leads to modesty culture and rape culture and so much shame and so many women who’ve been sexually harassed or assaulted telling me, like, well, you know, what can you expect? He’s a man, or it was my fault because of what I was wearing? And I’m like, absolutely not. Like, he does not get off the hook for that, because he’s a man. So that takes a lot of undoing to unlearn that.

Brian Lee  29:27  

Yeah, I imagine. Well, it’s like, another concept that I think is foreign to a lot of people in purity culture who don’t know about it or experience it, is marital rape. It’s like, because I know, for me, growing up, I did not think that was a possible thing, because, like, you’re married. So sex is always good, and it can never be rape, and it’s like, and yet, without that consent, which we’ll talk about in a minute too, or when we talk about that gatekeeper, is like the women should just always submit and always be ready and fulfill every desire the man has, because he can’t control himself, and he has, quote, needs just leads to a lot of really horrible things, even in marriage.

Camden Morgante  30:00  

Yeah, and the 1 Corinthians 7 verse, you know, passage about your bodies belonging to each other in marriage has been so incorrectly interpreted and used to defend marital right, or defend you know that she the obligation sex message versus what I argue is that sex should be mutual and it can take place in marriage without being holy and pure. If it’s not if it’s not mutual, it’s not pure. If it’s not honoring of the other person and honoring of yourself and your body, it’s not pure just because it’s in marriage. So I think pretty culture is so black and white, you know? And so either or. And instead, we have to realize, like, there can be nuances of when it’s not pure, even in marriage.

Brian Lee  30:46  

Yeah. And I’m thinking of, you know, we had Cait West on to talk about her book c, and her experience with patriarchy, yeah, and all these things and purity culture. I remember reading Jill, I think it’s Jill Duggars book, Counting the Cost after reading RIFT and just similar stories, just how much they were taught this kind of stuff.

Let’s jump to consent, because I mentioned it, but you write a lot about the ethic of consent, and I really appreciated the approach that you took there, that the ethic of consent is not enough. In chapter nine, tell us more about that.

Camden Morgante  31:15  

Oh, Brian, this was the hardest chapter to write.

Brian Lee  31:19  

It was really well done.

Camden Morgante  31:20  

Thank you so much. That means a lot because I struggled over that chapter and had some...

Brian Lee  31:26  

There’s a lot of tension and tightrope walking that you’re doing there.

Camden Morgante  31:29  

I had a lot of conversations with my therapist, my editor, my husband, everybody about that chapter, because there is such a tendency to when something is harmful, which I call purity culture and ethic of shame to want to throw it away and go in the opposite direction. 

And I argue for a middle path, rather than either or. I believe the ethic of consent, which is that any sex as long as it’s consensual, which means that each partner has consented to it freely and it’s legal, is okay. That’s what the ethic of consent is, and that is the alternative that is offered even amongst many people who profess to be Christians or who identify as Christians, who are critical of purity culture. 

And I believe that ethic is very insufficient. I think consent is necessary. I’m glad that we’re having more of a conversation about that that goes along with mutuality, for me, that that has to be present in a healthy sexual ethic, but particularly for Christians, it’s just, it’s not enough. I don’t see that God says, As long as it’s legal, go for it with anything really. I mean, he always calls us to think more critically about the heart. 

And so even if you no longer hold a traditional Christian sexual ethic of sex only within marriage, I still think you want to consider your values, like respect for self and others, like treating each other with respect, or is there a level of safety and trust? Is there a level of health and commitment? Or, you know, honoring of each other, like there’s so many other values to consider than just it’s legal. 

So I really, you know, can’t compare and contrast those two ethics and then argue for the middle path, which I call a values congruent ethic, one in which you have done the work of exploring your theology and your beliefs, you have examined various sources of truth to kind of bring in like, what does the Bible say about sex? What does research and reasoning say? What does my experience say? And then you examine your own values, which don’t necessarily have to be religious based, you know, but the things that you hold important to you, and all of that put together is how you reconstruct your sexual ethic so that you’re doing the work of really thinking through what you believe and not just taking what any other expert, author, pastor, parent, whoever tells you you should believe, including me. So that’s why I try to equip people with the tools and the questions to think through themselves, rather than telling them what.

Brian Lee  33:46  

I think you tell a couple of stories of people that you’ve worked with who went from this extreme of purity culture, abstinence only, sex within marriage, slash after marriage, who then have whatever experience they have. 

It’s like, well, forget that. I’m gonna go into the sewing my wild oats season, or just the anything goes right, and then come right back again. It’s like, well, that didn’t work either. And I’m just as empty and just as alone and just as all these things. And I appreciate you, right? That consent reduces the most intimate act imaginable into little more than a legal agreement. And it is that very transactional thing versus an honoring thing. It’s very turns people into a commodity instead of actual people, right? And I also appreciate that you write consent as a floor, not a ceiling.

Camden Morgante  34:32  

Yeah, that comes from Christine Emba’s Rethinking Sex, so I have to give her credit for that. And I give I share her story, because she doesn’t hold to a Christian sexual ethic, but yet she’s, she argues that consent is not enough to just from like a research and reasoning based perspective, not a theological one. So I loved her examples and her perspective of just that we should be considering how we can honor and value the other person and not just use them, as you said. As a commodity or as an object, and I don’t see that that is again, for Christians who are never to treat each other as objects to use for our own desires or for our own agenda, I guess so. I think there’s just a lot more to think about. It’s much more nuanced than just exchanging purity culture for an ethic of consent.

Brian Lee  35:18

Yeah, yeah, that’s really helpful. And then deconstruction. I mean, we could talk all day about this too, but it’s, it’s such a common experience for people in this community and in this audience of whatever they want to call it, deconstruction, disentangling. I’ve heard all kinds of terms for it, but I really appreciated the way that you illustrated it as a spectrum of home repairs, right? Yeah, basic remodel, modern restoration, complete remediation, or a total raising. Talk about the process of deconstruction. And then I also really want to get into Fowler’s theory of spiritual development.

Camden Morgante  35:52  

Okay, yeah, get really get into the theory. Yeah, not many people like to get that into the nitty gritty.

Brian Lee  35:58  

I do.

Camden Morgante  36:01  

Well, I just, there are so many criticisms of deconstruction, you know, that it’s oh, they’re just trying to be sexy, or Yeah, trends, or whatever. They just want to sin. And when they just want to do what they want, yeah? And when I, when I first heard the term deconstruction, I immediately thought that’s that’s a normal part of spiritual development that is nothing aberrant or abnormal. It really fits in with what I learned as a psychologist with Fowler’s theory of spiritual development, this rethinking of your beliefs, bringing in nuanced abstract thinking, which develops in adolescence through young adulthood. 

So before that, we really don’t have the ability with to critically and abstractly think about faith, but afterwards, we do. And so when we apply that to our faith, it makes sense that we come out with a more nuanced belief system that’s not as black and white, and that’s what deconstruction is to me, different people have different approaches. So it can be that spectrum of home repairs, and some people do have that total raising of the house where they walk away from their face or you know, it’s just blown up in front of their face, and they’re left with nothing. But for many people, and this is kind of my audience in particular, we want hold on to our faith. We want to stay Christians. We want to keep that relationship with Jesus. We believe in that. But yet, the faith that we were raised in just no longer resonates or makes sense with us, or we’ve seen too much, and so guess I just wanted to provide some normalization of deconstruction and also a vision of you can come out with a stronger, more nuanced faith in the end that may not look like what you had growing up, and that’s okay.

Brian Lee  37:35  

Yeah. Well, and I think it is that. It’s the, it’s the validation, it’s the normalizing, And it’s the, actually, this is a healthy thing. And if you don’t, at some point deconstruct something just a little bit, I mean, you’re you’re stuck. So that’s where we get into James Fowler, right? So I went on a rabbit hole when, when I read that part of that, yeah, there are seven stages, which is misleading, because there’s a stage zero and it ends with stage six. And then you kind of focus on stage three and four, which I thought was super helpful when talking about deconstruction, or just our faith journeys, or whatever we want to call it. Tell us about that stage three and four.

Camden Morgante  38:13  

Yeah, so stage three is where I kind of jump in. That’s the synthetic, conventional stage. And that’s where most people tend to remain, according to Fowler. And this is when you give authority to other leaders, or an institution like the church to tell you what to believe. You’re deeply threatened when others question your beliefs. You’re more comfortable with concrete, black or white thinking, and yeah, like many people, just feel comfortable staying there. 

But stage four is the individuative, reflective stage that can often begin in young adulthood, where you start to see outside your box and realize there are other belief systems. You begin to critically examine your beliefs, and there’s greater awareness of these complexities and inconsistencies in doctrine. 

So those are the kind of two stages I focused on most for my the purposes in my book. But what really stood out to me is that in the research, it said to those in stage three, the exploration of people in Stage Four can look like they backslid, when in reality, they’ve actually moved forward. 

And I thought that is what we are seeing with this criticism of deconstruction. We’re seeing people who are likely in stage three, who are saying, this is a threat to my black and white belief system. These people have backslid or they were no they were never genuine Christians. I hear that too, when, in reality, we’re just trying to make sense of some of the dissonance that we’ve experienced in our faith, whether that’s church leaders who’ve been abusive or self personal suffering we’ve gone through, or political and social changes that have led us to rethink things we’re just trying to figure out what the truth is. 

And so that can be a really disorienting and isolating process, that stage four, especially when it’s criticized by people with other stages, maybe, but I argue that there’s a lot of us in that, in that stage, a lot of us who are trying to make sense of things so we can feel less alone that way.

Brian Lee  40:02  

And thank you for reading that quote, because I had it written down. I mean, that’s the one that I really, “for those in stage three, stage four looks like backsliding when it’s actually progress,” was a huge kind of a light bulb. I think hopefully for a lot of people who are listening, it’s like, okay, that’s what I feel like is true, that I’m growing, I’m moving, and yet all I hear from people is like, Oh, you’re just doing what you want. You just want to live in sin., you’re backsliding, all these pieces. And that doesn’t have to be the truth. 

And I often, you know, when I think about these stages of development, that I liken it to what I think is an epidemic in the church of just a lack of discipleship, right? Because it’s rote teaching, it’s workspace, it’s do this and you’ll be fine without a lot of the why. Like, it’s like having that sexual ethic without understanding why I have it, without doing that critical thinking that is so necessary, without doing it in an embodied way that just says, Hey, learn this and stick to it without ever thinking about it or questioning and I think I also appreciate the quote, I think it’s deconstruction is the crisis and reconstruction is the commitment.

Camden Morgante  41:07  

Yeah, because I looked at other theories in psychology that say at each stage in development, we experience a crisis which is something that you know kind of are threatens that stage, or something we have to wrestle with. And then we have to experience a commitment, which is commitment to a set of beliefs or values in order to move on to the next stage. And so I see deconstruction as the crisis that then helps us move to the next stage. The reconstruction is the commitment. Yeah, so I’m I really think it’s a healthy process and but it is painful and it is isolating, and there’s been really lonely times for me too. And really, yeah, really, there still is challenges with with reconstructing my faith and figuring out a sense of belonging, too.

Brian Lee  41:51  

Sure, yeah, well, that’s something I teach. You know, when we run our cohorts for people, it’s like deconstruction is a necessary process, and you can’t just stay there forever. There needs to be a reconstruction eventually, because there’s going to be that discomfort, no matter where you are on that spectrum of home repair.

If we’re talking about home repairs, it’s like, even if it’s a basic remodel, there’s that time period of just I’m displaced from my kitchen or my bathroom, or there’s plastic sheeting everywhere, or I can’t use this, or there’s dust or or if it’s a complete remediation of I’ve lived with a toxic mold of purity culture for most of my life. How do I tear down the walls and the studs and replace all the things so I don’t keep living with this toxic thing in my life anymore based on where you are or how severe you feel like the need is to take those things apart, to move towards reconstruction again, like there’s grace for you, there’s there’s room for you, there’s space and time. Because this doesn’t happen on a specific timeline either, right? It’s like it takes the time that you need to get through that.

Camden Morgante  42:50  

And, it’s hard to really have a specific end goal of what my faith is going to look like in the end too. I think sometimes when I work with clients who are going through faith, deconstruction and reconstruction, there can be a goal of, I want to maintain my identity as a Christian. I want to stay in relationship with God. But other than that, I don’t know what this is going to look like. And they’ll ask me, you know, what is therapy going to look like? And you know, I’m like, there’s not a prescription of of a treat plan, like it really is more fluid and open ended to your own journey and your own exploration, but what we can, I think what you can arrive at is more peace in your faith journey and more acceptance of questions and doubt. You know, deconstruction is not resolved and reconstruction is not achieved by just having more facts and reading more apologetics books and trying to continue to be black and white about things, you can have peace, even with questions, in the presence of questions and doubt. And so making space for that and allowing you to live with those doubts and questions is part of reconstruction as well.

Brian Lee  43:52  

My YouTube algorithm is so bizarre, but it often feeds me these weird home renovation like surprise things on really old properties and just people doing weird projects of castles or old manors or, you know, just, they flip old houses. And when I think of that kind of a deconstruction, it’s like, we just know we have to do it. Or, hey, we found mold in the bathroom or the kitchen, and we just we it has to be done. That there isn’t always a plan. There isn’t always a blueprint or a vision of, well, here’s what it’s gonna look like in the end, like you’re saying. 

So whether you choose, it’s like, well, I want to hold onto my faith, or I’m completely willing to let it go, whichever one it is, having that agency to make that choice and to see what happens as it develops. And people will tear up a floor and suddenly discover, oh, there’s hardwood under here. Or for some people, it’s like, oh, there was a pool under this floor. Or look behind this fireplace. This is actually what was here. And there are surprises along the way of deconstructing that we will sometimes come across. It’s like I had no idea this was hiding under here. Or if you’re doing the work, if you’re going to therapy or in spiritual direction, or, you know, whatever path you choose to take, be prepared for surprises, because you just never know what’s going to come up. 

And sometimes having a blueprint or having a specific vision in mind hinders that process, like, oh well, this surprise came up. And so now, what do I do with this factor? Right? And just knowing that it’s part of that process and that you’ll get to reconstruct it eventually, once the toxic mold has been removed, or once the problem has been remediated, or whatever the process looks like for you. 

And so I appreciate the openness that’s there, and again, the tension and the type rope that you were walking throughout this entire book. I kept kind of like cheering for you. I was, like, the way that she’s threading this needle of, hey, listen, I’m coming at it from a very distinct I still hold to this ethic. I still hold to my faith. And here are the choices that you get to make going forward. I’m not prescribing something for you. I’m not saying this is how you have to do it. Here are what my clients have told me. Here’s what I’ve experienced. And what do you want to do going forward. I thought was really well done. So kudos to you.

Camden Morgante  45:54  

Thank you. Yeah, that was that was hard.

Brian Lee  45:56  

I, again, I would not have wanted to write that. So I’m glad you did. Any last thoughts before we wrap up?

Camden Morgante  46:02  

I mean, I think a theme from our conversation today is that you’re not alone and that you’re a lot of this is normal, valid, and there’s so many of us in this together, and that it is possible to hold on to your faith and heal from forms of spiritual abuse, which I consider purity culture a form of spiritual abuse or trauma for many people. So I hope that we leave people with that hope and with the hope that they, yeah, they can rebuild from, from the trauma.

Brian Lee  46:32  

Yeah, thank you. Where can people find or connect with you?

Camden Morgante  46:35  

My website is the best place. That’s drcamden.com and I’m on all the socials @drcamden, and the book, Recovering From Purity Culture is available wherever books are sold and comes out October 15.

Brian Lee  46:47  

Yep. So everyone go get a copy or pre order it, depending on when you’re listening to this. Recovering From Purity Culture: Dismantle the Myths, Reject Shame Based Sexuality and Move Forward in Your Faith wherever books are sold. We’ll provide the links for everyone in the show notes. Dr Camden Morgante, thanks so much for being with us today.

Camden Morgante  47:03  

Thank you for this great conversation, Brian.

Brian Lee  47:05  

I found that conversation to be so helpful. If you enjoyed it as much as I did, be sure to follow Camden and say thanks for being on the show. You can find links and all the things in the show notes at brokentobeloved.org. Subscribe or follow the show and leave us a rating and review or share with your friends. As a 501c3 nonprofit, our work is made possible by our generous donors. If this has been helpful to you, would you consider joining us? You can support us today at brokentobeloved.org/support. Thanks so much for taking the time out of your day to listen. I hope it’s been helpful. Here’s to moving toward healing and wholeness together. I’ll see you next time.