015: Healing What's Within through Curiosity and Connection with Chuck DeGroat

Trauma fundamentally disconnects us.

It can disconnect our brains from our bodies. It can sever relationships and entire communities. Those of us familiar with trauma know it can have a real impact on our faith or beliefs. It warps our understanding of others, our sense of safety, and even our own identity.

So how do we find connection again?

When we are alienated from ourselves, each other, and God, how do we find our way back home?

These are the questions that therapist and author Chuck DeGroat tackles in his latest book, Healing What’s Within. This is not a sequel or follow up to his previous When Narcissism Comes to Church, but rather a look at his own journey and process of dealing with his own trauma after spiritual abuse.

His deep knowledge and understanding of therapeutic work coupled with his experience as a minister, DeGroat offers incredibly practical tools for us to examine our own stories with curiosity and compassion and find our way back home to safety and security.

He reiterates our deepest message and hope, that we are indeed not just broken, but deeply Beloved.

Get the full show notes here. 📄

Episode Resources and Links

• Broken to Beloved Conference (for pastors and church leaders)
• Broken to Beloved Gathering (for the wounded and their advocates)
• Episode 001: with Dr. Alison Cook

Guest Spotlight

Website | Instagram | Facebook

• Healing What’s Within at Bookshop.org | on Amazon
• When Narcissism Comes to Church on Bookshop.org | on Amazon

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Transcript

Chuck DeGroat  0:00  

It’s a disconnection that leaves us alienated from ourselves, alienated from each other, and alienated from God. And you know, one of the one of the things we know about trauma is that when these stressors happen to us, like the one that happened to me 20 plus years ago now, it doesn’t necessarily need to manifest in trauma.

Two people can go through the same exact event. One person might have support and connection, might have a community rally around them. Another person may isolate and be alone, and that’s what results in trauma.

And what ends up happening is we grow disconnected from what’s happening within us, that simmering stress, that shame we don’t address. We get busy, right? We do all the things that we typically do, what that manifests in is this disconnect from what’s really going on within us. 

And so I ask someone, “how are you doing?” They say, “I’m fine. It’s great. I know that happened last year, but you know, I’m doing great.”

And what I come to realize after just a little bit of time, is that they’re not really aware of how they’re carrying this pain in their body. It comes out in all different kinds of ways, as those of us who’ve experienced harm know, and so it’s that experience that I’m describing right now, which is that disconnection, that alienation, that estrangement from oneself, that is the core of trauma.

Brian Lee  1:13  

Welcome back. This is episode number 15. Today, we’re talking with Chuck DeGroat about his new book, Healing What’s Within. Chuck was a guest at our 2024 Summit, and is no stranger to many of you who’ve read his previous book, When Narcissism Comes to Church. He’s become a huge encouragement to me, and I’m so honored to count him as a friend. Chuck DeGroat is a follower of Jesus, husband to Sarah and father to two amazing daughters.

He serves as professor of counseling and Christian spirituality and executive director of the Clinical Mental Health Counseling program at Western Theological Seminary in Holland, Michigan. He’s also a faculty member for the Soul Care Institute, a licensed therapist, spiritual director, author of five books, including When Narcissism Comes to Church and retreat leader and speaker. Chuck has specialized in issues of abuse and trauma, pastoral and leadership health and navigating issues of doubt and dark nights on the faith journey.

He’s also a minister of word and sacrament in the Reformed Church in America, and has pastored in Orlando and San Francisco before transitioning to training and forming pastors. Chuck also trains clergy in issues of abuse and trauma, conducts pastor and planter assessments and facilitates church consultations and investigations of abuse among pastors and within congregations.

And now, here’s my conversation with our friend Chuck DeGroat. Chuck, welcome to the podcast.

Chuck DeGroat  2:35  

Yeah, thanks, Brian. So good to see you again.

Brian Lee  2:37  

Hey. Really excited for your book. Thank you for sending it early. Healing What’s Within: Coming Home to Yourself and to God When ou’re Wounded, Weary and Wandering. It was a gift.

Chuck DeGroat  2:49  

You actually are holding a copy of it. I am. I don’t even have that. So that’s pretty cool.

Brian Lee  2:53  

You don’t? That’s amazing. You start the book right out by telling the story, very short story, of how you were fired from your church staff position after 20 years. Why bring that up and tell it now?

Chuck DeGroat  3:07  

Yeah, well, I wasn’t, you know, when I wrote Narcissism book, I didn’t want to make that about my own story, because it happened so long ago, and there’s been, you know, there’s been a lot of repair. Relationally, it was important, I think, to tell because of what happened in my body, and that’s really where I end up going in part in the book, right the aftermath of that, as any of us know who have survived or endured really challenging situations in ministry, the aftermath was really painful, and I stewed in my anger. I thought of ways to get some sense of justice. It really hurt that there weren’t as many allies and advocates for me during that season. I felt very alone.

Of course, back then, I suppose I could have gone on MySpace or something like that, you know, maybe an AOL chat room or something. But there was no, you know, there was no no place to go to say I’m hurting, and in many ways, I’m glad, because I probably would have been very reactive. And so I carried a lot of that in my body and and really, even as a therapist doing my own work, there was a lot that I carried within me that I did not deal with, that ended up coming out in chronic pain, illness, heartburn, stomach pain that landed me in a hospital years later.

So, but it was important, I think, just to open with a brief story of of how these things happen to us that we can’t control, but with a pivot toward how we take a look at the pain within us and how we carry it.

Brian Lee  4:44  

And I appreciate that it’s, it’s not a memoir at all. I mean, after that sentence, we barely talk about it. It’s not about the dirty details, as you say, and you just said it, what happened to me isn’t as important as what happened within me in those months and years after.

Chuck DeGroat  4:56  

Not to minimize, by the way, at all, the details, right, and the need for justice. And they’re, you know, I’m reading Judith Herman—I can’t believe Judith Herman is still writing—but I’m reading Judith Herman’s Truth and Repair right now, where she talks about how survivors get justice. It’s really important, but that’s not what this book is about.

Brian Lee  5:16  

To start us off, people will hear it’s like, oh my goodness, that was 20 years ago, and he’s just writing or healing or mending from so give us some early hope for those of us, and I think I appreciate that it’s not the memoir, it’s not the details, because it makes it more relatable. It makes it more universal, like whatever pain you’ve experienced, whatever you’ve been through, this is not to minimize but to give you really practical tools to find a pathway forward, right? We’re always saying moving toward healing and wholeness. So for those of us who have experienced something similar, it doesn’t need to take 20 years. The book outlines that, right?

Chuck DeGroat  5:50  

No, no, you know, I think this is the thing we’ve learned a lot about how we carry trauma in our bodies, really, in the last 10, 10, 15, years. I mean, there’s been a shift in the way we understand trauma in the last 30 years or so, but it’s been popularized by and large. You know, Bessel van der Kolk’s best selling The Body Keeps the Score and myriads of books since, you know, sort of taught us that there are ways in which our bodies carry trauma that we haven’t addressed. 

I know, back in the day, I was more oriented toward the past, and so, you know, as a therapist, when I was trained in the mid 90s, a lot of it was about going back into your past and exploring the wounds from your childhood. But we weren’t necessarily asking what’s happening right now in your body. How are you carrying this? How is it manifesting in symptoms, or what I call the personal dashboard, your thoughts, your feelings, your body, your behaviors in your relationships. 

And so in many ways, you know, I was even in my therapeutic work, I was not addressing the pain and how my body was carrying the pain. And so, yeah, it’s important for people to hear now that we’ve got maybe more resources and tools for people to engage this pain. And of course, that’s what I try to do in the book as well.

Brian Lee  6:59  

I love that. You open the book by saying, “In our effort to pursue justice for what happened to us, we begin to hinder any chance at hearing what’s within.” And that there’s 100 reasons why we choose to cope instead of confront the ache and this disconnection inside of us. And there’s so much good stuff about, I mean, the whole book basically, is about this connection, this longing for connection. And at the heart of trauma lies profound disconnection. To me, it was a real eye opener. 

We often hear trauma defined or described as the overwhelming, like when our body is unable to cope with the overwhelming sense of what is happening to us, right? Yeah, that’s right, and you frame it as a profound disconnection. Tell us more.

Chuck DeGroat  7:40  

Well, I think it’s a disconnection that results from that overwhelm, that overwhelm of stress, right? But the disconnection that leaves us alienated from ourselves. So I put it as alienated from ourselves, alienated from each other, and alienated from God. And you know, one of the one of the things we know about trauma is that when these stressors happen to us like the one that happened to me 20 plus years ago now, it doesn’t necessarily need to manifest in trauma.

I say in there, two people can go through the same exact event. One person might have support and connection, might have a community rally around them. Another person may isolate and be alone. And that’s what results in trauma. 

And what ends up happening is we we grow disconnected from what’s happening within us, that simmering stress, that shame we don’t address. We get busy, right? We do all the things that we typically do: we get busy, maybe we start coping with drinking, we go to the gym. Some of the things that we attempt to do are actually probably really good things. But what that manifests in is this disconnect from what’s really going on within us.

And so I ask someone, “how are you doing?” They say, “I’m fine. It’s great. I know that happened last year, but, you know, I’m doing great.”

And what I come to realize after just a little bit of time, is that they’re not really aware of how they’re carrying this pain in their body. What they’re not aware of is that constant, you know, neck ache, backache, stomach pain, sleeplessness, rage on the roads. You know, reactivity. It comes out in all different kinds of ways, as those of us who’ve experienced harm know, and so it’s that experience that I’m describing right now, which is that disconnection, that alienation, that estrangement from oneself, that is the core of trauma.

Brian Lee  9:21  

That’s helpful. You frame the book with three questions right out of Genesis 3, with Adam and Eve, talking about that disconnection and this need to have something deeper than a flannel graph faith. Which I appreciate, because I also grew up with flannel graphs. I don’t know if they use them anymore. 

And what I love, and Dr Alison Cook wrote the forward to the book, we just had her talking about her book, I Shouldn’t Feel this Way, in this framework of name frame and brave. 

And I love the reframing of the three questions that God asks in the garden, right? Where are you? Who told you? Have you eaten from the tree? And I think you you nail it, that we so often hear it, perceive it or feel it as this condemnation, as this coming down on us or on Adam and Eve, and you do this beautiful reframing, yeah? And you make it Invitational. Would you tell us about that?

Chuck DeGroat  10:08  

Yeah, well, so that disconnection that we were just talking about, this contemporary understanding of trauma and trauma’s disconnection, I, as someone who’s a pastor for a long time and studied scripture, I saw in that early story, that ancient story, that primal story of Genesis chapter 3, which is a story of disconnection, alienation, estrangement. And so you know, if you think about the first two chapters of Scripture as this dance of connection, God making us in and for relationship, God creating us for worth, for belonging and for purpose.

One of the points that I try to make in there that wasn’t emphasized in the tradition that I was in growing up, is that our hearts were targeted by a slithering serpent, you know, that we were a gaslit, that we were harmed, that we were abused, in a sense, you know, in the garden, by a serpent that asked the question, did God really say? Which, of course, in Adam and Eve stirs profound questions, can I trust God is God’s design for me good?

And so this is really important, the question that leads to that early sense of shame and eventual self alienation that results in Adam and Eve grasping. And so now Adam and Eve are alienated. They’re disconnected, they’re hiding, they’re sewing fig leaves. And in that that moment, you know, what most of us would expect is to be condemned for our sin, you know, for grasping, for going someplace else, other than God.

I can hear 1000 sermons in my head of, “You made the choice. You made the decision to...” And what’s striking to me is in that moment, in that story, that in my tradition, growing up was a great tragedy, God does not show up on the scene with a “what the hell have you done,” you know? God shows up with a kind and curious “where are you?”

Of course, God is walking in the cool of the day, you know, as the sun is going down, as I often say, during that time of the day when God would have been going on walks with Adam and Eve. God’s looking around, saying, “This is the time we go on walks. Where are you? I miss you.”

But the question is not just a question God’s asking us. It’s a question we can ask ourselves: Where am I—how am I alienated, disconnected, estranged? How am I hiding? How have I sewed fig leaves in the midst of my own shame? How have I disconnected from God, from others, from myself? 

It’s a really important diagnostic question that we can begin with. And of course, there are three questions that I explore, but that first one is really the critical hinge pin linchpin for the rest of the questions.

Brian Lee  12:31  

Yeah, I love it. And then those three questions frame the three parts of the book, and working towards reconnection, recognizing and naming the disconnection that we have from ourselves, from each other, from God, and recognizing by curiously and compassionately examining, asking ourselves those questions, being invitational about it, rather than being shaming or condemning about it. I think that’s what I appreciate so much about the book, is that it takes such an open posture in curiosity with ourselves and with each other again, not needing to focus or ruminate on what happened to us, but on what’s happening within us, so that we can find a way forward, not stay stuck.

Chuck DeGroat  13:11  

Yeah. I mean, I think for many of us who have experienced harm, and you know that story that I open with is only one piece of my story, there are other painful parts of the story, there are big questions about God and God’s kindness toward us, and I think this has been, for me, a really healing path. I first started leading retreats, probably back in the early 2000s and this question, where are you, was one of the early questions I asked. 

And for me, it’s been a story of recovery and repair and reconnection with God using those questions. Of course, the first question is a question that asks us to identify that disconnect that we’re talking about, right? But the second question probes a little bit more deeply. Who told you? Which is to say, what counterfeit story have you been living in? Whose voice have you been listening to?

And I think as I look at my own story, of course, there are those first two chapters of Genesis. We’re created in and for goodness, for relationship. God creates us for worth, for belonging and purpose. That’s how I identify the image of God. 

But there’s that next piece, that sense that in each of our stories, not just the story of Genesis, chapter three, there are those in our lives who question our inherent sense of worth, our birthright of belonging, our call to purpose, right? And some of the work that we need to do. 

And I identify this in the second set of three chapters, chapters four, five and six is, how do we look at our stories? How do we begin to understand where those ruptures took place? Then the third question, this was the most confusing question for me. Have you eaten from the tree? But God had asked these open ended questions, and now he asked a not very open ended question that you can answer with a yes, no. And I had to sit with that. 

And it was over a decade ago that I was leading retreat, and it dawned on me what God is really asking is, where have you taken your hunger and thirst? Which is to say, How are you coping? Thing, which I think is really compassionate. I think so often over the years, as I’ve coped, I’ve been critical of myself, there’s always a voice that kind of stands behind me, and it’s a voice of shame. It’s a voice of criticism. Why have you done that? I can’t believe you’d make that choice, but I think here again, curiosity and compassion. Where have you taken your hunger and thirst? 

And there’s a second piece of that question that Jesus asks, but what do you long for? What do you most long for that invites us into the depth of our desires. So even as as we we explore our lives and the ways in which we’ve coped and adapted and survived amidst our wounds, God is already redirecting us home, redirecting us to the depth of our desires.

Brian Lee  13:33  

And I love that it again, it’s invitational, but it also fosters and encourages agency, which I think for so many of us who share this kind of story, that agency was stripped from us, right? That we were we felt like we were given no choice. And so the curiosity of that last question, which I had a hard time too, when I was first reading the book, I was like, I was like, I don’t know where this is going to go. I don’t know how this is going to work. It was such a beautiful again, reframing of that question and of approaching ourselves. 

And you talk a lot about self awareness in that last section, but this ability for us an invitation for us not to just double down on bad behavior or coping skills, because it would be very easy to just get defensive with that question, right? Oh, hold on, hold on. I don’t know what you’re asking me, I feel like I’d be in trouble. So yeah, but this ability to just call it for what it is, it’s like, Here are the ways I’ve been coping. Yeah, this is what I really want, and this is the way I’ve been doing it. Help me.

Chuck DeGroat  15:41  

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think it’s really important for us to identify how we’re coping, but then to ask, well, what’s the wound, then what’s beneath it? Because I think invariably, if we’re numbing in a particular kind of way, if we’re coping, we’ve learned to adapt. We’ve learned to survive amidst a wound and well, it’s important for us to identify the ways in which we cope. You know, where have you taken your hunger and thirst? 

What I’m asking folks to do is to look a little bit deeper and to ask, How have I been hurt? What’s the wound and what’s the hunger and thirst drawing us to? You know, like, what’s it pointing to? I talk about looking for signposts. 

In other words, as I look at the different ways that I’m coping, as I look at some of the behaviors that I’ve engaged in that I might see as problematic, what are they pointing to? What am I most hungry for. And when you get down beneath the surface, what you recognize is that we’re all really hungry and thirsty for the same things. What we want is security, belonging, connection, a sense of worth, a sense of enoughness. But we settled for these various things that we do to numb and disconnect.

Brian Lee  17:37  

Since connection is such a big theme, let’s kind of drill down a little bit on that one, I’m thinking about people who have felt isolated, who were literally excommunicated from their churches, who may be single, who may have moved, maybe moved away from their families or communities, and don’t have that support system in place. Where do we start to find points of connection for ourselves when we feel so alone or isolated.

Chuck DeGroat  18:02  

Yeah. Well, so this is, yeah, what you’re pointing to is one of the tragedies of abuse and harm, right? Is that we end up feeling alone, alienated, oftentimes powerless, in the midst of that. And think of the people that I’ve worked with over the years who’ve been ostracized, practically excommunicated from communities. They lose friends. They lose a deep sense of connection. 

And oftentimes, at least in my work, and I think in the work that pastors and spiritual directors and therapists do, there’s, there’s, of course, an invitation and a desire for people to connect healthily, you know, to others in their lives, friends, people who care, relationships that are safe. But I think that there’s, there’s another piece that has become important to me.

I’ve long been a deep drinker of the contemplative tradition of the Christian faith, and this idea that, as Augustine said,—Augustine, of all people, Augustine who really focused on some of the more tragic parts of the story—but even Augustine said, “God, you are more near to me than I am to myself.”

And this idea in the midst of self alienation, in the midst of the sense of estrangement, that there is a sense of God’s presence, a sense of God’s Spirit at the depths of who we are. And I think one of the points that I sort of pivot toward in my work is inviting people to access that sense of presence, and if they can access a sense of God’s presence, even a sense of their own presence to the pain. One of the resources that we don’t realize that we have is our adult selves. You know that so often, when we’re hurting, we’re living out of younger parts of ourselves that are wounded and reacting. But we have access. We can find access to our adult selves and bring some compassion to these younger selves within.

When I was beginning to do my work in earnest, I remember beginning to pay attention within with this kind and curious question, where are you? And you know, there are parts of me that were mad, that my fists were clenched and I wanted justice. I wanted to, I wanted to hurt someone. There are parts of me that you know crawled under a table and were just desperately scared. There are parts of me that were shamed.

And part of the work that we get to do is to bring a sense of presence to these different parts of us and and what, what people who I work with realize is that wherever you are, whatever is going on, you can bring a sense of adult presence, a sense of your own presence, even to the parts of you, to the emotions, to the bodily sensations, to those young, scared, desperate, ashamed parts of you that are flailing, and you can experience a sense of calm within. 

Now that’s not something that you can snap your finger and magically have happen, right? You may need some help, sure and resourcing from a therapist or a spiritual director or someone who understands this process. But we, we have access to our true selves, our adult cells, and we, we can find our way to compassion and curiosity, even to the parts of us that have been wounded.

Brian Lee  21:00  

That’s really helpful. Thank you. 

Can we talk about befriending suffering? You write, you know you talk about, blessed are those who mourn for they will be comforted right from the Beatitudes, Matthew 5, and then you write, “to mourn is to bring your suffering into the light before God and others. To mourn is to refuse to suffer alone anymore. To mourn is to live in truth, to acknowledge that you’re hurting, to seek truth rather than self soothing.”

And I love that it’s not bypassing, it’s just like you’re saying, being present to yourself where you are and naming those things. What can it look like to mourn there?

Chuck DeGroat  21:36  

Well, I think, I think it’s what we were just getting at. It’s, it’s about, I think sometimes, when we’ve been hurt, we’re, we’re sort of flooded with, blended with our sadness, you know, and all we have is a sense of sadness. 

And part of this is, is again, to bring a sense of presence to the sad parts of us, to recognize that we’re, we’re carrying sadness, the emotion of sadness, within us. It’s a part of us that needs tending. I really like it. And, you know, I get into this at one point in the book. 

I really like the work of Padraig O’Tuama and his wonderful book In the Shelter, where he invites the reader to greet different emotions, experience parts of themselves with a kind “hello.” Which, as he says in the Aramaic, is peace, be with you, and it’s, it’s sort of a kind “Hello, sadness.” 

And I will do this at various parts of the day. Hello sadness, hello shame, hello anger. You know, I’ll read a tweet, I’ll see something going on out there on social media, and, you know, another injustice, more harm. And I’ll notice something welling up in in me. Instead of becoming blended with that anger, I’ll sort of greet it as a presence within me. Hello, anger. Oh yeah, we’re feeling that right now, aren’t we, you know. 

And then I asked myself the question, What’s it like for me to speak on behalf of my sadness or my anger, rather than becoming my anger? The reactivity, the fight or flight that we live out of the reactivity is us, us sort of shifting into a state, an autonomic nervous system state, a sympathetic nervous system state that puts us into fight and flight and has us responding in reactive ways. And what I’m inviting is for us to shift into a state of presence and calm and connection, where we can care for the parts of us that are hurting and speak on behalf of them, and that’s a much more kind and compassionate way of engaging our pain.

Brian Lee  23:29  

Yeah, I’m thinking of Inside Out and Inside Out 2 and how it’s given us such really good tools to recognize these distinct emotions that are happening in us, and like you’re saying, to just be able to say hello and greet them where they are, to not become blended with them, but to remain distinct and differentiated. I’m also thinking of ifs internal family systems and this idea of true self, or, you know, however different people write about it and Inside Out. 

Obviously, it’s just a movie, but they often show the inside of someone’s head, whether it’s Riley or someone else with one distinct emotion, usually in the driver’s seat. As you think about remaining distinct and differentiated, how do you see that as when we are the ones in the driver’s seat, speaking on behalf of rather than allowing that to be reactionary? How does that work for you?

Chuck DeGroat  24:16  

Yeah, there are different metaphors. The driver’s seat is a really helpful one. You know, there are different parts of us, our anxiety, our shame, that take over jump in the driver’s seat, and it’s really important for us to re access our true selves, our adult cells, and simply and kindly to offer you know our anxiety, our shame, our anger. You know a place in the car, a place in the bus, however you want to describe it, but not in the driver’s seat. 

Another metaphor is living like accessing self as the conductor of an orchestra and inner orchestra, right? And there are times when the you know the trombones or trumpets are blaring, or the you know the French horn takes over, and you know the conductor offers a kind and curious whisper, like, “it’s okay, your turn will come. Come, you have a part to play, but you don’t have to take over.” 

And I find myself, Brian, actually doing this internally. Put my hand on my chest, and I’ll whisper a kind “it’s okay,” and I’ll be whispering to my anger, to my shame. It wells up and at different times and in different places, but it doesn’t need to take over. 

But the reality is, is that we are approaching this from the perspective of compassion and not shame, knowing that when these emotions take over, it’s simply our nervous system operating in a way that is attempting to protect us. You know, when we’re harmed, of course, a fighter is going to jump in and attempt to protect us from further harm, you know. So I want to bless the fighter within me. I want to say thank you for your anger, your good anger, your righteous anger, but we’re best served by you allowing me to speak on behalf of the anger, because if I end up reactive, if I end up in fight mode, chances are probably going to sabotage myself even more. And I have done that before when I react out of my anger, right?

Brian Lee  26:02  

For sure. Let’s jump there, because I think this, this was so fascinating to me. And then you introduced two new terms to me, talking about these sympathetic nervous system you you describe them as a sympathetic storm and a dorsal thought, That’s right. I thought was really helpful.

So in this Sympathetic Storm, we’re in hyperarousal. We’re activated, in Dorsal Fog is hypoarousal. So we’re feeling immobilized, disengaged. We’re self soothing. And normally, I think most people are familiar with fight, flight and freeze. Fawn is a fairly new term for me, like, in the last couple of years, and learning what that means to be, like, overly appeasing and compliant. But then you introduce two new terms, yeah, for me with find and fold.

So in the Sympathetic Storm, you categorize those as fight, flight, fawn, yeah and find, yeah. And then in the Dorsal Fog, you say freeze and fold. Could you tell us a little more about those? Because that was so incredibly helpful for me to hear.

Chuck DeGroat  26:57  

Yeah. Well, the shorthand for me is, is Home, Storm and Fog. And we’re talking about autonomic nervous system states. Now, home is that centered state. It’s your ventral vagal system. We could go into the details of that, but it’s really not important.

It’s your spiritual and physiological home and and I bet each of your listeners knows some sort of experience of home. You know when you feel grounded, when you feel present and connected and settled sympathetic storm is that more activated state now our body has gone into a kind of active survival mode, right? This is the gas pedal of our nervous system and and it’s our our good nervous systems desire to protect us in the midst of potential danger, and that’s where I talk about four different responses, fight, flight, fawn and find fight and flight pretty familiar to most people, right? 

Fawn being more of an appeasing people pleasing kind of response that it probably a contemporary evolution of our ways of staying safe in the midst of danger, and then find is more of a desperate clinging or grasping to someone else. Please, Brian, save me. I need to be in relationship with you to be okay. You know that’s fine. 

But then dorsal is where our nervous system goes when it feels completely overwhelmed, like I just don’t know that there’s anything else that I can do. And I’ve known this in my body, I suspect you’ve known some version of this. By the way, in both of these states, we stay there for a long period of time. Sometimes they’re just short ways that we we’re resourced for a particular period of time. We shut down and we survive for for a really hard season. Maybe it’s a week or two, but dorsal is a state of, oftentimes, of either freeze or shutdown, freeze or fold. 

Freeze being that, you know, deer in headlights, kind of response that we’re all familiar with, where we just kind of feel stuck, like, I don’t know what to do. I can’t tell you how many people I’ve worked with who are like, I just don’t know what to do anymore. Part of me wants to fight and part of me just wants to give up. And so there’s a both end component to freeze and then fold is like, I’m just done. I can’t do it anymore. I’m stuck. I’ll never get the justice that I want. I’m I’m doomed to depression and disappointment, and many of us have known some version of that. And it’s really important for us to identify where we are in these states and to identify the particular responses that we engage in these states.

And so what you’re doing is now you’re going underneath the hood more often than not. We deal with symptoms, we manage anxiety, we talk about, yeah, I’ve got this shooting pain. My stomach’s hurting. I’m feeling sad all the time. I’m really judging my thoughts, that’s sort of above the waterline dashboard kind of work that we do. But now what you’re inviting us to do is to kind of go beneath the waterline and say so what’s happening in our autonomic nervous system? What state are we in and and how is our body attempting to survive? 

What I realized is that I was dancing between sympathetic and dorsal, between storm and fog for for a number of years. I was fired in 2003, I landed in the hospital like 2011, 2012. And so, you know, for a number of years, my body was just simply surviving. That’s a long time for your body to be in a kind of mode that is exhausting.

Brian Lee  30:15  

Yeah, incredibly exhausting. And then tell us more about home too, because I yeah, this again, was so helpful. You talk about the window of tolerance. From Dan Siegel, our friend Aundi Kolber, talks about window of tolerance a lot. So what does it feel like? Or, what is it? Or how do we find our way back home, out of the storm or the fog?

Chuck DeGroat  30:32  

Yeah, well, here again, we’re getting into technical language. But really, the window of tolerance is that sweet spot within where we we feel like, you know, we can, we can live in a sense of flow. We can live with a sense of spaciousness and aliveness. We can tolerate some stress, you know, maybe, maybe we encounter, you know, a person or situation or a memory from that thing that happened to us. But we find our body able to sort of manage it and stay regulated. That’s a demonstration of an expanding window of tolerance. 

When our window of tolerance is small, we’re activated, we’re reactive a lot of the time, and we’re pulled out to sea. We’re pulled out to sympathetic storm or dorsal fog. And so really, what we’re trying to do in the work is to expand our sense of home, to grow in our sense of spaciousness. 

And the beautiful thing about that is we become more this is not just physiological, this is spiritual. We become more spacious people. We begin to live out of our true selves. We become a more generous people.

And you know, I think one of the shifts that I’ve seen in my life, as I’ve done the work, is that for a long time, I live so self protectively, yeah, but as I’ve, as I’ve experienced the shift, I find myself, well, I think maybe beginning to live in ways that Jesus calls us to live. I hope a little bit, you know, now I say that, and then I’m back in sympathetic storm because something happens, and it’s like, oh, there I am again, in self protection. But the hope is that we live in a more grounded, calm, centered place, more regularly.

Brian Lee  32:05  

Yeah, and it’s, I think it provides a lot of hope too. I think when I’m coaching people, I often talk about the Ebenezer stones in the Old Testament, when Israel’s wandering, it’s like, every once in a while they would come to this spot, and God would be like, hey, go get a bunch of rocks, pile them up here. And the next time you come by here. It’s a reminder that, yeah, you can do this. Yeah, we’ve been through this. I’ve brought you through. I will be faithful.

And I think for me, remembering and recognizing when that window of tolerance is open, or when I’m within it, no matter how big or small it feels, I’m there, I’m home. I can set up this small pile of rocks mentally. Yeah, just be like, Okay, I know what this feels like. I know I can get back here again when I’m out in the storm or in the fog, and I may not be able to recognize that pathway now, but I know I’ve been there before.

And it helps to ground me in a way that often when I’m feeling completely untethered, yeah, like I will get there again, not right now, but it’s there. It’s waiting, and we’ll find our way.

Yeah, let’s talk about paying attention, because I really like this part, and it kind of ties you reference When Narcissism Comes to Church, that people often mistakenly hear self focus as narcissism, right? Distinguish the two for us.

Chuck DeGroat  33:17  

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that’s one of the things that I heard a lot after publishing the Narcissism book, and I’ve heard it over the years. You know, this mistaken sense, because I’m, you know, I’ve beevn a pastor and a therapist for a long, long time, inviting people to what I think is an ancient tradition of self examination. You know, this way back in the Christian tradition and into scripture. But what you often have people say is, “well, doesn’t self examination, doesn’t self inquiry, doesn’t self awareness, just lead to narcissism, to self focus?”

What I often say, is that what narcissism is is a radical disconnection or alienation from oneself. It’s not self focus at all. To be self focused is to be exactly what we were talking about a few minutes ago, living from the depth of your own heart, from a place of generosity, manifesting in the fruits of the Spirit, love, joy, peace, gentleness, faithfulness, self, et cetera, et cetera, right? But when you’re living from a narcissistic place, you’re actually living out of a survival based part of you that, in its grandiosity, has just been attempting likely for a long time to get along in life.

The narcissists that I’ve worked with are people who are radically disconnected from their true selves, and they’re living out of these more grandiose selves, in part because they were harmed long, long time ago. It turns out they’re experiencing trauma. And out of their trauma, what they’ve learned is that if I live grandiose, if I live self protected, if I live powerfully, I won’t be harmed again.

Yeah, and so there’s a radical, I hope that makes sense, but there’s a radical disconnection from what, what’s it looks like, self focused, right? Because on stage, it seems like they’re trying to platform themselves. They’re trying to call attention to themselves. But I would say it’s a desperate attempt to meet core needs in a way that’s ultimately sabotaging.

Brian Lee  35:09  

Yeah. And I think it’s true, whether it shows up as grandiose or covert, right? There are people who engender sympathy or empathy because, because they come across as humble, because they come across as, you know, there’s you want to help them, yeah, they seem helpful to you, yeah? But really, it’s this bid at self. It’s this bid to, hey, come prop me up, because I need this.

Chuck DeGroat  35:33  

And I think in my work, and you know, that was one of the things you may remember this. I think one of the, probably one of the most controversial things with the Narcissism book is that people were like, Well, you seem to have compassion for these people, you know? 

Brian Lee  35:46  

Right. We talked about this at the summit too!

Chuck DeGroat  35:48  

Yeah, and I just don’t, by the way, I don’t think compassion is, is, is controversial. But, I mean, I think when you work with folks like this, what you see is the underbelly. You see the shame. You see that there’s this compensation right, this grandiose compensation right, or this more covert style of compensation and narcissism, but underneath this ashamed little girl, this ashamed little boy, wounded, traumatized, in need of real care, and if they’ll allow me, and if they’ll allow God, they might find their way to real care. But many end up doubling down in ways that sabotage even more because because they’re just that wounded.

Brian Lee  36:26  

Yeah, yeah, this is a little bit of a rabbit trail, but I want to chase it anyway. It’s, you write “amidst storming anxiety, the reaction is not to trust, but to fight, not connection, but self protection. And it’s a reaction of insecurity manifesting in sabotage and shame.” And I think that’s captures kind of the root of that narcissistic disconnection, rather than the awareness of self, that it isn’t paying attention.

I think you also write, where is it that “the practice of paying attention is actually an antidote to narcissistic disconnection.” And when I read that, I, my first thought was, I think this applies to churches and institutions, yeah, that become isolated, they turn inward. They, like you say, they double down on that sense of self, rather than becoming curious and open and aware of what’s happening in their system.

And how it does engender compassion when we’re able to see it, for narcissistic people and systems to say, Oh, this is coming from a place of shame, not coming from a place of grandiosity. When we look past those symptoms and go underneath, like you’re saying. Tell us a little more about that.

Chuck DeGroat  37:32  

Yeah. I mean, I think ultimately, when I work with people, there, there’s a sense that, I mean, you’ve had this experience too, I’m sure. When, let me put it this way, when you meet someone who is deeply connected to himself or herself, who knows himself or herself, who done the work, who’s living from that ventral home, living from a spacious window of tolerance, they’re not grasping for attention at all. They’re not living out of a fear or shame based kind of survival place, right? They’re not, they’re not trying to manipulate you to care for them. There’s a simple and quiet generosity and that I’m drawn to.

I think of particular people in my life who exude spaciousness. They know themselves well, but they don’t need a platform, and they don’t need to demand attention. You know, they simply live with a quiet generosity. 

And I think that that’s what I’m hopeful for. That’s when, when people do the work of paying attention, when they do the with the work of what’s classically known as self examination, we become more generous, generous and spacious people. We become more compassionate and curious people, we become more like Jesus, ultimately.

Brian Lee  38:44  

Yeah, I love it. There’s just, there’s just so much hope, openness, and like, I keep saying that that sense of curiosity, that that allows us to make room for ourselves, to make room for other people, without judging, without condemning, without shaming, without saying you’re just terrible person.

And I think it’s so easy to go there when we’ve been harmed, when we’ve been hurt and we’ve been wounded, yeah, that any of those you know, nervous system responses whether we want to fight, whether we want to tuck tail and run, whether we just want to drop and curl up in a ball, yeah, when we can allow ourselves that process of feeling, that feeling Yeah, and embodying that response, yeah, and then to be able to shake it off say, Okay, what’s next, rather than staying here, what’s next? And I love that idea.

Chuck DeGroat  39:33  

Yeah, I think they’re often, and you’ve, you’ve seen this, I’m sure, two postures when, when people harm. There’s a sort of angry, judgmental, like, they, they need to be punished, kind of posture, right? And there’s, oh, they just, they need grace. I mean, God offers us grace. All of us are in need of grace.

And I think that what I’m trying to hold is that tension of, we can hold people responsible. There are, there are parts of, you know, when someone is living out of their pain and acting out of their grandiosity in ways that are manipulative and harmful. I want to hold that that person responsible.

Well, at the same time recognizing that that’s not the core of who they are, and as we do the work and as they connect to that core of who they are, they’re they’re going to be more fully responsible. They’re going to be able to take responsibility for the ways in which they’ve harmed, because they’re now beginning to see that they’ve been living out of their pain in ways that sabotage others and sabotage them.

And I’ve seen this happen, but it doesn’t happen by sort of compelling people to do it or shaming them and to do it. It’s the exact opposite. It comes through the kind of compassion and curiosity that allows people to say, I don’t want to live like that anymore. And by the way, I need to get serious about how I’ve impacted others or harmed others when I’ve lived out of that grandiose part of me.

Brian Lee  40:50  

Yeah. I want to close with attachment, and this could be a whole other episode, or Summit session or something. So I’ll just jump to, because I have all the notes for all the different styles, but let’s just touch on the last, new, earned attachment, which you call realized secure attachment. 

Which I really appreciate, and I like that, that there’s hope. No matter what we’ve been through in our life, no matter what childhood was like, no matter what our earliest relationships were like, that there is this chance of finding that healing, finding that integrity and wholeness and attachment in our present relationships. Tell us about that realized secure attachment.

Chuck DeGroat  41:30  

Yeah. Well, we’re talking about attachment theory here that goes back a number of decades and gets at our earliest childhood relationships and the ways in which we’re we attach securely, which leads to goodness and flourishing and insecurely, which leads to anxiety and avoidance, and sometimes a combination of both. And a pathway back that allows us to experience a deep sense of security and delight that is often called earned secure attachment. Which is to say that if, if you spend enough time in good and healthy relationships, you’ll develop a more solid sense of yourself, you know, you’ll develop that sense, that capacity to access that the calm center that we’ve been talking about.

Well, the reason, the reason I shifted the language a little bit, is because I believe that’s our birthright. I believe that that’s what God created us for. And now, I’m speaking as a Christian, you know, I’m shifting from sort of a attachment theory view to my own understanding that God created us as image bearers for worth, for belonging, for purpose, and that that’s not something we earn back. That’s ours.

Even John Calvin, you know, who gets a bad rap for seeing us as so broken. Even John Calvin said, “look not at the sin within them, but the image beneath it,” you know? And so, you know, there’s that sense of, you know, as I sit with someone who has done profound harm, I see both the harm and the image bearer created for worth, belonging and purpose. And what I want him to realize, what I want her to realize is that that’s her deepest sense of self, deepest sense of being, deepest inheritance, you know.

That’s and, you know, I’ve been doing this work for a long time, and I’ve got lots of stories to tell, like there is a lot of hope, but I realized that, you know, you and I hear a lot of stories of harm and pain, and it seems like it could seem really bleak at times, but the I’ve worked mostly with men in this arena, but the men who sort of turned the corner, and who’ve shifted to a place of humility and curiosity themselves, and who’ve you’ve shown up over time as humble because they’ve put in the work. It’s really pretty extraordinary, and it’s possible. So there’s, there’s a lot of reason to hope.

Brian Lee  43:41  

Yeah. And I even love that, that idea, because I think there are so many of you mentioned this expression of anger and this desire for justice, and to hear you who have walked with, I don’t know how many people, many, many people to have seen the other side of it, yeah. And to see people turn around that there is hope for leaders who lead this way, who do incredible harm, to find that sense of self again, to find that sense of belovedness.

And I love the quote that you use from Henri Nouwen, “our first and most important spiritual task is to claim God’s unconditional love for ourselves, to remember who we truly are in the memory of God, that we are God’s beloved.” And I think it brings us full circle back to the beginning that, that it starts with us, yeah, if we can reconnect to our sense of self, to this embodied sense that we belong to God, that we are beloved by God. And again, that’s the Christians spin on it, and that’s kind of the perspective that we take on it, that that’s the beginning of it, right?

Chuck DeGroat  44:40  

That’s the beginning of it, yeah, and that we all have that access point. You know, regardless of of the harm that you’ve experienced, you could find your way back to that sense of connection, that sense of presence. And even I just want to say to a listener who’s saying, you know, God doesn’t fit into the equation for me right now. You know, I think you can find your way to a sense of connection and presence, because this, you know, I think in my way of understanding of things, God created us.

God created our physiology so that we can experience a deep sense of calm presence, connection, belonging, worth and so it may, it’s okay. I work with a lot of people who can’t name that as God or God’s presence, or okay, but there is this palpable sense of, I don’t know what it is, but I feel okay, I feel held, I feel loved, I feel like I belong. And it’s like, Yep, that’s it. And that’s, that’s what I hope for, for me, that that’s the in a sense, that’s the cure that return to connection, that return to ourselves, to use Augustine’s word again, words again, which allows us to show up in the world as people who are profoundly present, who belong, and who can convey that sense of presence and belonging in all of their relationships.

Brian Lee  45:58  

Yeah, I appreciate that, and I love that reframing of not earned attachment, but realized that it’s a remembering and a reclaiming of our belovedness what’s already ours. It’s what is already ours. That’s what we are all about, for sure. 

Chuck, thank you so much for all of this. Everyone is this is just a teaser of what’s in the book we covered so much, but there is so much more that’s in there, where can people find or connect with you?

Chuck DeGroat  46:23  

Yeah, so www.chuckdegroat.net is my website. I’m on most of the socials @chuckdegroat. I have not and will not venture into Tiktok. I’m just getting too old. Brian. But yeah, I try to be as active and as present as I can in that fraught social media space.

Brian Lee  46:46  

Yeah, great. Everyone go pre order a copy of Healing What’s Within anywhere books are sold. We’ll have all the links for everyone in the show notes. Chuck, thank you again. You are a gift. This book was a gift. So appreciate you.

Chuck DeGroat  46:58  

Yeah, I appreciate you. Thank you, my friend.

Brian Lee  47:00  

Wasn’t that a great conversation? If you enjoyed it as much as I did, be sure to follow Chuck and say thanks for being on the show. You can find links and all the things in the show notes at brokentobeloved.org.

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