001: Navigating Toxic Systems and Maintaining Agency with Dr. Alison Cook

Have you ever wondered how to find your way back into healthy relationships after abuse and trauma? By providing clear steps to Name, Frame, and Brave our experiences, Dr. Alison Cook offers practical wisdom to move toward healing and wholeness.
We talk about the unique challenges of leaving toxic spaces and environments when they involve family or our livelihood, ways to set boundaries, and to remain curious to our internal world.

🔗 link to full Show Notes and transcript

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Episode Resources and Links
How to Walk Into A Room by Emily P. Freeman on Bookshop.org | on Amazon
Grieve, Breathe, Receive by Steve Carter on Bookshop.org | on Amazon
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Guest Spotlight

Website  |  The Best of You Podcast  |  Instagram  |  Facebook

• Get I Shouldn’t Feel this Way at Bookshop.org | on Amazon
• Get The Best of You at Bookshop.org | on Amazon
• Get Boundaries For Your Soul at Bookshop.org | on Amazon

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Transcript

Alison Cook: 0:00

I just don't I feel like this person doesn't get me. I feel like my my boss, or the pastor of this church is sort of demeaning me, or or or sort of minimizing me. And it well intended, friend, I'll say you should just talk to them about it. You should just go to them and share with them what's hard. Well, if there's something toxic going on in that system, that's the last thing you want to do. Those vulnerable feelings that we have around feeling minimized, feeling invisible, feeling sidelined, feeling marginalized, feeling angry, those are pearls of vulnerability that we want to share with safe people who've earned our trust. Welcome

Brian Lee: 0:38

to episode number one of the broken to beloved Podcast. I'm so glad you're here. I hope to provide practical resources through compassionate conversations to grow in trauma awareness, set up safeguarding practices to prevent or avoid future trauma and move toward healing and wholeness. I'm your host, Brian Lee, and today we're talking with Dr Allison cook. We'll be talking about her newest book, I shouldn't feel this way, and we cover a lot recognizing and naming toxic systems, incredibly practical tools to navigate those relationships and how we can make conscious decisions to take our next step forward. Dr Allison Cook is a therapist and host of the top ranked the best of you podcast. She's the author of I shouldn't feel this way, and the ECPA best selling book, the best of you and co author of boundaries for your soul, widely recognized as an expert at the intersection of faith and psychology, Dr Allison empowers individuals to heal from past wounds, develop a strong sense of self, forge healthy relationships, and experience a loving God who is for them. And without further ado, here's my conversation with our new friend. Dr, Allison cook. Dr, Allison Cook, welcome to the podcast.

Alison Cook: 1:48

Oh, I am so thrilled to be here with you, Brian, thanks so much for having me.

Brian Lee: 1:52

Yeah, and it is honor to have you for our first episode. Congratulations on the release of your third book. I shouldn't feel this way. I got to have an early look as part of your book launch team. Really appreciate how intensely practical it is. It's the third in what you unintentionally have as a series, starting with boundaries for your soul, then the best of you. And now I shouldn't feel this way. Would you just walk us through what that arc looks like?

Alison Cook: 2:19

Yeah, it's interesting. I didn't necessarily set out to write what I kind of realized, oh, this has become a three book trilogy, but the three books really flow out of my own experience. They're different angles on my own experience of being a woman who identifies as a Christian grew up in a Christian home. Have my own transformational experience with, you know, the living God, you know, with Jesus, very palpable, very real in college, but then descending into at least a decade of a lot of psychological, you know, as I, as I look back now, a lot of unhealed wounds. I had a lot of unhealed pain. It was in an era where we weren't talking a lot about mental health. I mean, now we're starting to talk about it a little more in the church. Then it was almost non existent. And so things I write about, like codependency, what I now understand to be the fond response small t traumas and big T traumas, some of these things that didn't magically get healed, right? Even though I had a deep, abiding faith in God and an understanding of God's love for me was very confusing for me, and so as I went through graduate school and my doctoral program, I just began to cobble together what many of us now are trying to do, this intersection of faith and psychology, right? What does it mean that we still have to heal the soul, heal ourselves, even when we might have a strong faith. And so the three books are different aspects of that journey. Boundaries for your soul is rooted in a model of therapy called internal family systems. It's very trendy right now because it's depicted in the Inside Out movie, right that that model of therapy just changed everything for me, because it posits that there's a self, yeah, and there's a core of who I am that matters. And my experience at faith communities was like, self is bad, yep, we should obliterate the self. And that was very damaging to me. So ifs or boundaries for your soul is a Christian adaptation of that, ifs model of therapy, the best of you again, kind of zooms out, and really is the process of healing the self and how that brings us into healthy relationships with other, and then with others. And then I shouldn't feel this way, becomes this sort of forward moving. What are the practices that we have to do, even once we've done some healing work, once we're feeling a little bit more aligned with our true selves, what are these daily practices that we have to do because life is always throwing us challenges? Yeah, and so that's where I shouldn't feel this way comes in. How do we deal with the emotional knots that show up from time to time in just normal everyday life?

Brian Lee: 4:57

Yeah, that's amazing. Um. So boundaries for your soul. I'm looking it up. Came out in 2018 it's been quite an arc. I read that one fairly recently, along with a whole bunch of other ifs books, after learning about it for myself. And again, I just appreciated how you took something that could be so complicated and it's just so readable and understandable, and you break it down and make it not simple, but just clear. And I really appreciated that, yeah,

Alison Cook: 5:30

but Kim and I, my co author, and I worked on that for several years because it is, you know, can be a it can be a complicated system. And so we, we worked on that for years to try to really get it down. And it's still, you know, is work, especially, you know, for your listeners who check it out, you know, if there's a lot of unhealed pain, we call them exiles, parts of the soul that are carrying heavy burdens, you want to do that work with somebody with a trained professional and at the same time, I do believe that the knowledge is powerful, just the knowledge that there are these different parts of us, and each one is valuable, and each one plays an important role, is just helpful for every single one of

Brian Lee: 6:12

us. Yeah, absolutely. And same thing, like you mentioned, learning about trauma responses and this new one of fawning that I came across that maybe three or four years ago, and I was like, What is this? Because we all hear fight, flight and freeze, and now we hear a lot more about fawning. For those who are hearing that, and may be unfamiliar with that term, how do you define that?

Alison Cook: 6:34

Yeah, I think for a lot of folks, especially coming out of faith communities, I think that fawn response is often sanctioned. It's socially acceptable. It's almost sometimes affirmed as a sign of spirituality or superior faith. And so I write about it a lot in the best of you, because that was my experience. And so if you think about fight, flight, freeze and then fawn right? Think about a child who is in a situation where maybe their parents are fighting, maybe they're witnessing violence, maybe there's some overt abuse, maybe there's just a lot of conflict that isn't managed well. And in that moment, a child and I talk about a client who, you know, is watching her parents fight and scream at each other, and that the child she's she's in that moment, there is a trauma, there's a wound, she doesn't know what to do with that a young child is confused, and so the nervous system has that response. I can fight, you know, I can run into it, I can flee, I can leave. I can, you know, go the opposite direction. I can freeze, which is sort of this, you know, I I want to move forward, I want to fight, I want to flee, but I can't do either, so I just freeze. But then there's this fun response that so many of us adopted, which is, I'll try to make everybody feel better. I'll walk into it and and console my parent, or try to pacify the the aggressor, right? I'll pick up the broken dishes on the ground that have been thrown around in violence. I'll make everybody feel happy. And it's a nervous system response. I as an adult, I've come to think of it as almost compulsive pleasing, or compulsive need meeting, which is, I've got to make everybody feel better. I've got to make this Okay. I've got to be the kindest, nicest, best person in the room, right? And so you adapt that as a coping style, and people think you're amazing, you're so kind, you're so helpful, you're always there for other people, right? That's how that shows up in adulthood, and you internally are exhausted. You're not actually getting your own needs met. You don't know how to let others show up for you. And it really relates to some of these really painful patterns of relating in the world. And I see it a lot in my practice. I just started seeing it over and over and over again, especially among faith based women, it's sort of this socially acceptable style of coping with pain.

Brian Lee: 9:10

Yeah, thank you for that explanation. I know I think for me, when I learned about it, and I think it was through Andy Kolber, who also writes about the response, along with lots of other people, but I would have these flashbacks and memories of standing in the pastor's office as a pastor on staff and just being torn into or having some kind of trauma response, or being reminded of whatever else has happened in my past. And like you're saying, I wasn't able to fight, I couldn't run away, because you're in the office. I'm kind of freezing, but not really, because I need to do something. So instead of acknowledging the trauma response that I'm having, you just kind of put a big smile on your face. It's like, whatever you need. Sure thing everything's fine, even though everything in my body is screaming that it's not

Alison Cook: 9:53

Yes, and it's a very adaptive response in that moment, because it does differ. Use tension externally, but the problem is then you're left with all of that pain and and confusion and frustration, and it hasn't been adequately addressed, either within yourself or potentially in a situation where there is a need for some healthy anger, some healthy truth telling, some healthy naming, to use a phrase from I shouldn't feel this way, right? And so it takes some skills from the inside out. We have to start to again, not shame ourselves for that response. I still, to this day, I'm like, Oh, right. I was just in a setting that evoked that response. And what I've learned is when that happens, I start to ask, what felt threatening in that setting, what was I responding to? And I slow it down, and I begin to do some naming work, and I begin to come aware I don't shame myself, but it helps me actually, then be more equipped to show up the next time I'm going to be in that situation, a little bit more in command of my own responses, it's usually a cue that there might be an opportunity for me to be assertive, to name some things that are hard. And so I've learned to turn that into that fawn response, into a cue for me, right, that there's something I might need to be brave about in this situation. Yeah,

Brian Lee: 11:24

that's really good. Thank you. So yeah, let's jump into the book. I mean, I shouldn't feel this way. It's all these ways that we should on ourselves and say, you know, this, all this compulsive behavior that we have based on our environments, based on the way that we've grown up, you have this short thought right at the beginning of the book that on any given day, the average person processes 11 million bits of information and anywhere from 6000 to 70,000 thoughts. Just hearing that can be overwhelming, and the fact that most of it's happening outside of our conscious awareness. So for people who are already feeling overwhelmed or don't feel like they have the space or the time to stop long enough to name something, because it's just constant bombardment of stuff, what do we do with that bit of information?

Alison Cook: 12:14

Yeah, I think mostly it's just to become aware. The naming of that amount of data is simply just to become aware, oh, there's a whole world inside of me. That's it. There's just a world inside of me, just like the galaxies around us. I'm not going to understand it all, you know, today or tomorrow, but that awareness of, oh, there's something really powerful here, and it's inside of me. I think that's beautiful. That's what was sort of life changing for me. I understand the bigness of God. You know? I I love learning about God. I'm never gonna fully understand God. I don't like it when we reduce God to tiny, little, understandable sound bites, right? There's something beautiful there, that there's a moment and and the thing that I began to realize is that's true of you. There's there's a vastness to who you are. There's a vastness to who I am that our goal isn't to perfectly understand and control it, because that gets that power and control. Yeah, the goal is almost to go, wow. Okay, this is amazing. I never have to be bored, because there's always something going on inside of me that's I can get curious about, that's interesting. I wonder what that is. So I really look at it as an opportunity to get curious. I love it about ourselves and our inner lives. I love

Brian Lee: 13:30

it. I love it. I love it. And so you lay out this again, incredibly understandable and clear framework that is not simple, but just clear to name what's hard, frame your reality and brave a new path. And it doesn't give away the book, because there's so much good stuff in there, you write that naming is a profound act of noticing, acknowledging and validating the truth of what you're thinking and feeling at any given moment. And I have found that to be so true, because we can't heal what we can't name, right? I think you write, we can't tame what we can't name. So how do we learn to name those things that we just don't have language for? Because I know, for me, coming out of all these experiences, I didn't have the terminology spiritual abuse, I didn't have the terminology for trauma or any of that stuff. How do we start to learn to name things that we don't have language for? Yeah, yeah. I

Alison Cook: 14:21

love that question. Brian and I talk about the the low hanging fruit of naming could be something like something doesn't feel right. Yeah, that's it naming. I don't like the way I feel after these meetings with the pastor. I don't know what it is, but I don't like the way I feel that's good. And what I'm really trying to do with these three practices is the naming, giving yourself permission to name something without jumping to fixing it, drawing a conclusion about it, making an interpretation about it, giving ourselves permission to go. You know what? At this point, here's what I know. No, I don't like the way this makes me feel, and often that I shouldn't feel this way, which is the title of the book, is the very first thing we notice, because we know I don't like the way I feel. So to use your example, I'm in a meeting with a pastor, with a, you know, someone who's over me and I don't like the way I feel. And then immediately so many of us go but I shouldn't feel that way. I shouldn't feel that way. I should feel okay about it. So sometimes that I shouldn't feel this way is the first thing we name. I am feeling really mad at myself, that I don't like the way I feel sometimes, that's the first thing we name. What's that about? Why do I always feel guilty in this situation? Why do I always feel bad about myself in this situation? Those are really low hanging fruit names. Yeah,

Brian Lee: 15:47

that's really helpful. Thank you. It's like we are dismissed or gaslit so often we start to do it to ourselves. And so I really appreciate the section in a well fitting name, right? You name and call out the ways that our experiences are mislabeled or dismissed and our need for validation. And so many in our community have had this experience where they've been abused, gaslit, dismissed, not heard, not believed. So it's almost like you're saying by just accepting and reaching for that low hanging fruit that we make room for, almost a self validation. I guess. Would you share a bit more about that. Yeah,

Alison Cook: 16:23

because it is a process. Naming work is a process. It's a practice, I would say, Yes, right? And it's a practice of learning to put words on an experience that is inherently murky, and we're learning to trust our own instincts, our own intuition, our own Holy Spirit led self, even as we are wanting to take in data from other people. But we're when we when we're doing the work of naming. There's this, you know, immediately my nervous system now I've trained myself. I go into what, what I think in Christian language, we call discernment. It's like I'm thinking about different names. You know, someone will say to me, I was going through a hard time a few years ago, and I was trying to kind of put words on it, you know? I was saying, Gosh, I here's how I feel, like I feel this, or I feel that, and, and a friend was just like, that's depression internally. I was like, I could get why you think that doesn't feel quite right, right? So it's like trying on a shirt, I don't think that fits quite right, but there's a trust of my own self in that too, that I'm and I'm like, okay, I get it, but I don't think that's it. And because here's why, and then, and then you're kind of noticing, but because I feel it only in this setting, and there's a feeling of guilt that you know, you start to kind of piece together, and call them truth pieces. It's almost like a puzzle. You're starting to go, Yeah, but there's this piece over there and and you're following those namings to get to the truth, the small t truth of your experience that is, like, you know, what's really going on here is, you know, in my case, in that situation, was intense burnout, I am completely burnout, and I don't know how to ask for help, right? And so that's a subtle distinction between depression. It can show up and feel a little bit like, Yeah, I'm kind of shut down. I'm not experiencing joy in the way was, but the real thing was just this deep seated burnout, and all of a sudden my whole system is like, yes, that's what's going on. And it is a slightly different path forward out of it. Sure, sure.

Brian Lee: 18:37

Yeah. That's really helpful. Thank you. I think when it comes to naming, you know, I think what can be so hard about being a namer is being in a context or a system that doesn't honor it, or maybe doesn't even want it, right? You write that a namer is a truth seeker, someone who commits unwaveringly to the process of uncovering what is true and aligning with that reality. And I think for me and for many people, naming is what has so often gotten us in trouble, because we've been ostracized, belittled, maybe silenced, or even excommunicated for speaking and naming the truth. What do we do with that?

Alison Cook: 19:15

Yeah, my even as we're having this conversation, my whole system kind of just feels that with you, the pain of really naming and especially before you understand if there is toxicity around you, all of the ways in which that toxic system is going to try to crush you for naming things, right? And so I would say a couple of things. One, if you're new to naming work, number one, I say in the book, name what's hard to start with yourself. And I say that as a way of saying initially, really lean on your own instincts, your own powers of discernment. Really lean on that. Because if you're naming something hard, there. Are good. There's a good chance there's something going on around you that isn't great. Yeah, right. And so really leaning on that number two, get really do some naming work again, who are the people that I really trust, and bring it real small. That's good. Bring that inner group really small, really small, maybe, especially if you're in a system, whether it's a church system, a work system or a family system, if what's happening is enmeshed in a system, find someone outside the system. Find someone who's not in it to go something's going on here, and I can't figure out what it is. Do the naming work with someone outside the system first, because you just don't know yet who you can trust within the system. I also just want to say that when you do start to name toxicity, even if you're not sure exactly what you mean by that, I have a whole chapter in the book on it, it is important to be very wise. Very, very wise. And so when we get into the framing and braving step, if, as you're doing some naming work, and it involves a system, immediately just to yourself, you're gonna have to have support from outside that system. You're gonna need to frame it with folks from outside that system, and you're gonna have to have to kind of hold on, because the braving when we're dealing with toxicity is very different, yeah, than it is if you're dealing with a healthy relationship. And I want to say this to folks, you know, so often when we get into memes and one size fits all answer, you know, someone will be talking to a friend and say, Man, you know, I, I just don't I feel like this person doesn't get me. I feel like my my boss, or the pastor of this church is sort of demeaning me, or or or sort of minimizing me and at well intended friend, I'll say you should just talk to them about it. You should just go to them and share with them what's hard. Well, if there's something toxic going on in that system, that's the last thing you want to do. Those vulnerable feelings that we have around feeling minimized, feeling invisible, feeling sidelined, feeling marginalized, feeling angry. Those are pearls. Those are pearls of vulnerability that we want to share with safe people who've earned our trust, right and so I think that's sometimes a message that is a message that needs to get out there for folks that having a healthy conversation around conflict with someone who's harming you requires safety. It requires two people to be respectful of each other, and if the other person isn't capable of that, then you have to brave a different path.

Brian Lee: 22:43

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's what I've learned as part of the gift of CO regulating with someone who is that safe, safe person and safe place to be with. Yeah, that's really good thing. That

Alison Cook: 22:56

could be a naming Brian when you're early on, if you're involved in a system and you're like, Man, I keep trying to raise this concern with this person, and whenever I leave that conversation, I just feel worse. I feel more shame, yep, yep, yep. I feel more confused. I feel like I'm crazy. Wow, is that something important, important to name that's really good. Never arrive at resolution. We never really get anywhere. I just leave feeling like it's all my fault. That's a powerful naming right there. Wow, huh? I wonder what that's about.

Brian Lee: 23:30

Yeah, wow. Thank you. So once we've named that, once we've become aware of right? I love that you talk about liminal space, which we talk a lot about here at broken to beloved, right? You write that a place in between helps you bridge from naming what's hard to braving a new path. It's where you do the work of framing and develop a clearer understanding of your situation. We're reading how to walk into a room by Emily P Freeman right now in our book club, and she, you know, it's all about the hallway and that in between space where we can start to, like, disassemble, like, I don't know this is where I was, but I'm not where I'm going. And what do I do here? What is that work of framing?

Alison Cook: 24:14

Yeah, I think it's one of the most important practices we have to develop. Right when I'm when I'm working with clients, sometimes the fear of naming What's hard is that if I really name this, I don't know what to do with it, and I have to help them understand we've got that. We have to be patient. We have to create a place in between. And again, if you're in an abusive situation, it's hard, you know, and depending on the level of abuse you may need to get yourself out of there, you're still going to need that place in between to discern what happened, what happened to you in the past, what happened to you in the moment. And and understanding of all that will help you come brave so you don't just fall back into a. Other abusive situation, right? But let's say you're in a situation I work with clients all the time where there's a family member who's really toxic, and they're starting to name that, and they're starting to realize that. Or they're in a church where they're starting to realize there's really toxic things going on here. Therapy can become a place in between, a place where they're still going through the motions of showing up. They're aware. They're beginning to kind of pull back a little bit internally, but in the work, in the therapy room, we're really starting to do that framing work. And framing work, I use the acronym frame. We're looking at the facts. What are the facts? How long has this been happening? When did it start? What is actually happening? We're just really looking at the facts, the roots. What are the root causes of this? You know? What? And you start, kind of start to look at what, what happened, you know? What did? Did a new person come on board? Um, was, Did I say something, and suddenly people are treating me differently? You know, what are the root causes? We're really trying to look at it again in a safe place. We're not yet having the conversation with the other person. We're not yet doing anything about it. We're really trying to understand it in our the privacy of our own souls, with a couple of safe people, with God, right? It's that place in between is that bubble that we build for ourselves. We're trying to audit. What have I tried again that gets back to I've tried having all these conversations. Doesn't work. I've tried this, I've tried that. What does work? What doesn't work? What are the messages I'm telling myself, it's all my fault. Is that true? Right? If I was a better Christian, this wouldn't be happening. That's an interesting message that I'm telling myself. And then expansion, you know, what are the things? Who are some experts that can help me understand this? Now, listen, I want to make this practical. That's the theoretical, the framing work as we grow, as we depending on the situation that we're dealing with, a place in between. Could be a walk you take each day. It could be a 30 minute walk where you intentionally take a moment to unplug from the podcast that you're listening to, where you unplug from other people's voices, you do some breathing work, and you connect to your own spirit, and you kind of begin to think about and notice and reflect on what just happened in those meetings that I just had, what just happened as I was interacting with my kids. You know, this framing where it could be as short as a deep breath, as a walk you take, but where you're intentional about reflecting on these different truth pieces that are showing up throughout your day. Man,

Brian Lee: 27:50

I we could just stop right there, but we're not going to. I'm going to keep saying, everyone, go get the book so once you've had the space to frame those things out. And I love that acronym, because, again, it seems so deceptive, deceptively simple, and I can't imagine what it took to outline that and come up with those because it is so intensely practical and so intensely clear, and hopefully will help people to acknowledge and see what they've experienced and put it in a different light that doesn't you know, have come with blame or judgment or any of those things, but to hold it non judgmentally and just look at it objectively and say, This is the root of my experience. This is what I've tried. This is what I've been telling myself. Are these things true and kind and helpful or not? And then we have a choice to make it.

Alison Cook: 28:35

Yeah. There's a way in which you're fact checking your inner system. And again, this is where you have to do this work outside of the system? Yeah, yep, because the system may or may not be I mean, sometimes I'll work with folks, a lot of times I work with folks, they'll come to me something's going on with my church. There's all that. And so we just start looking at the facts. And I don't want to jump to a braving step until we really understand the facts, and especially you. So there's just a lot of trying to piece it out. I did an interview with Steve Carter. He wrote the book, grieve, breathe, receive. I'm sure you're familiar with this work. And he talked about how, as he did the work of framing what happened to him at Willow Creek, he said, I realized it came down to, I want to say, I think he said, five people, five people that hurt me, you know. And, and what that freedom to go was all these other folks were actually just kind of trapped in a toxic system, but we're great people, and I could have healthy, restored relationships with them, right? And so that was an example of he really, as he examined all his interactions, he could break it down to where it really, where the root of it was, right, which freedom to let go of where it wasn't. And I see that all the time in my work. So that framing work is really helping us get that big picture perspective. Fact check what's really at the root of it. And then again, as you were starting to move, we're moving to the braving steps based on all that work. I'm making for today. I'm going to do this, yeah,

Brian Lee: 35:03

and I think even having that reframing, you know, outline for me, would have been so helpful three years ago, because I think I did. I shamed myself for suffering wisely. I did not suffer wisely. I just suffered because you need the health insurance, you need the paycheck. You're the only source of income I there's I cannot leave, and yet I feel stuck in the system. And yet just being able to reframe it and brave it as a as an intentional reclaimed agency, sort of choice and decision to say, I will choose to suffer wisely, because that is what my family needs right now. And so I will stay in this position and figure out what that does for now, until there is another way out. I think just having that, just having that reframe, would have been such a difference, and instead of just kind of sinking into the darkness to be able to feel like, Hey, this is a choice I'm making. It doesn't feel like a great choice, but it's the one we can use for now,

Alison Cook: 36:02

yeah, I, I love that. I've worked with clients similar to what you're saying. They can't leave, yeah, the toxic work situation. And so we'll, we'll do all these exercises. We're going to imagine that bubble of protection. You know, there are ways we're going to try to equip ourselves to walk in and protect ourselves as best we can. And those are incredible skills to learn in some of those situations that just aren't so binary. It's just not so easy as I'll just walk away.

Brian Lee: 36:28

Yeah, yeah, it's huge. Chapter Nine is I shouldn't feel trapped in toxicity. And you talk about disentangling from toxicity to brave the health and goodness we deserve. And that one chapter is worth the cost of admission and the whole book, for me, we mentioned how we need to name things in order to heal from them. And I think just naming toxicity in systems where we don't typically expect it, if we come from, a family system, a work system, a church system, whatever it is, just recognizing toxicity could be anywhere we've talked about needing that sense of safety when we're hurt or angry, to share with someone who is safe, to recognize that toxic people are the opposite of safe when we feel stuck in toxic relationships, spouses, parents, pastors, bosses, children, whatever, when we feel stuck in those positions and we feel the need To suffer wisely, how can we move through that space? Yeah,

Alison Cook: 37:24

you mean with, how do we resource ourselves to protect ourselves? So if, if, because often it is a, I use that word disentangling very intentionally, because often, if there really is a toxic person or a toxic system around them, they're not going to make it easy. Yeah, for us to leave Yeah, right? Health is when two people can sit down and have a healthy breakup or a healthy parting of ways, right? If the system was healthy, we wouldn't have to use all this do all this work to figure out, how am I going to get out of it? Right? That's the paradox of health. In healthy relationships, we can have conversations that are hard. And so to disentangle there are lots of I give lots of practical steps about how to do that, but there are so, for example, if we're suffering a system wisely, I talk a lot about just really practical time boundaries. I won't be I will only spend X amount of time in this situation or with this person. I put boundaries around it. I talk about using the buddy system. I try not to be alone with this person in this setting. I try to always have someone else there as much as possible. I don't reveal emotional boundaries. I don't reveal personal things about myself in this setting. Those are those pearls. Yeah, you know some How's, you know, a lot of times folks are trying to get inside, and there's some toxics, they're trying to get at your vulnerability so that they can exploit them, right? And so there's just and and really simple emotional boundaries of again, this is where you put up that protective armor, but you put it up strategically. You use it for yourself, you know. Oh, so, how are your kids? How is your family? They're great, full stop, right? That's where that you use that those fun strategies, strategies to your advantage with intention. You know where you you smile. You know what you're doing, though, and that's the difference. Yes, I'm doing this to survive. Those are survival strategies. That's what they are. But the difference is, when you're doing them as an adult with conscious intention, you're saying, oh, every time somebody asks me a question, when I go into this meeting, or I go into the setting, I smile and say, we're great, you know. And again, that's not full proof, because in a really toxic system, they'll try, you know. But you're really trying to use those time boundaries, those emotional boundaries, to protect yourself as best you can. To know. Give any foothold to that person to be able to exploit your vulnerabilities. Those are just some tactical things. Again, those work for now. Those can work for a season, as you're also in parable. Parallel to that, you're increasing your support from outside the system so that you can figure out your exit strategy. Yeah. So those are just some I talk a lot about in the brave acronym, we're looking at boundaries, right? Boundaries in our external world, boundaries in our internal world, even just realizing for folks sometimes, Oh, this isn't a safe place to share honestly. So I'm going to have to be equipped with some scripts to make up some things. When people ask me how I'm doing because I'm not sharing the truth, right? That's a boundary that you set. I talk about range, increasing your range or your repertoire of coping strategies, right? So that's the grounding yourself. Some folks, you're gonna have to be grounding yourself hour by hour if you have to be at a job, use learning some grounding exercises, learning some guided imagery, learning some deep breathing, where you're learning how to manage your nervous system in a really challenging setting. So assertiveness, some folks are learning assertiveness skills, which may be, I need to initiate a hard conversation, but also assertiveness might be, I don't do meetings alone, you know, or, you know, and it's, it's, you know, kind of figuring out what is, how can I assert myself in a way that will help me survive this situation? And then the vitality V is really important. I think people forget this. What does bring me life, because if I'm suffering a toxic situation, wisely, I've got to have at the times I'm not at work or not at church or not. Wow. What is bringing me life? Because I can't be suffering all you know, I can't be doing all the hard things all the time. So what do I need to move toward to bring me life? And then environment E is just another way of thinking about, how do I change my environment? How do I change kind of where I put myself? It could be as simple as I change the coffee shop I go to, because I need to get to a coffee shop where I don't run into folks from church. I need to get to a gym or a grocery store where I don't run into folks on my off time, you know. So there are a lot of practical things we can do to help us. And again, all these these steps are iterative, because as you're doing these things, even as you've made a choice, Okay, I gotta suffer wisely. What's gonna happen? Because you're gonna you're anchoring yourself, you're you're giving yourself agency, you're buoying yourself up. You're gonna also begin to, you know, it's like the there's a vicious cycle of descending into shame and chaos. There's a virtuous cycle of, oh, I'm starting to see where I find the fresh air, where I find the good things. Oh, I'm starting to see there might be another job over here. Oh, I'm starting to see there might be other people over here. And you're starting to move toward health, even as you're grounding yourself to suffer something wisely, man,

Brian Lee: 43:05

I love that so much. That's so so so good and so important. And I think the other, the other thing that you include in that chapter is for people, like we said at the beginning, who don't know how to name things. You name really clear, toxic behaviors, for people who may be unfamiliar with them. Control, manipulation, triangulation, blame shifting, verbal abuse, gaslighting, and you provide really clear definitions in that entire section. So I think that's super, super, super helpful. Thank you so, so much. I can't thank you enough for the gift of this book, of all of your books, of the work that you're doing. If people want to find you or connect with you, where can they go?

Alison Cook: 43:47

Yeah, thank you, Brian. I just I love this conversation. Dr Allison cook.com, is my website. You can find all my books there. I have a podcast called The Best Of you podcast where we talk all things faith and mental health on Instagram and Facebook a little bit, not too much. But at Dr Allison cook, I post there, I would love to, in honor of the this is the inaugural launch of your podcast. I'd love to give some books away to your listeners.

Brian Lee: 44:12

Oh, that would be incredible. Thank you so much everyone. And I mean, everyone, go get a copy of I should feel this way. Wherever books are sold, we'll provide all of the links for everyone in the show notes. Dr Allison Cook, thank you again, so much, so much for being with us today.

Alison Cook: 44:29

Thanks for having me.

Brian Lee: 44:30

That was just incredible. I'm so thankful to Dr cook for her time and expertise and for sharing it with us. If you enjoyed it as much as I did, be sure to follow Dr cook on Instagram and say thank you for being on the show. You can find links in all the things in the show notes, or@brokentobelovea.org subscribe or follow the show to get new episodes automatically. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a rating and review. It really helps us out, or share on your socials and tag us. I'd love to see who's listed. And see your takeaways as a 501, c3, nonprofit, our work is made possible by our generous donors. If this has been helpful to you, would you consider joining us? You can support us today at broken to beloved.org/support coming up on the show. We have Janae, almond JS Park, Laura Barringer, Tim Whitaker and lots more. Next time, we'll be talking with Lori Wilbert about her new book, the understory. We go deep into our discussion on life in the midst of death and decay and what it looks like to find ourselves in the middle of it all. And if you've made it this far, thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to listen to our very first episode. I hope it's been helpful. Here's to moving toward healing and wholeness together. I'll see you next time you.