004: An Honest Look at Grief and Loss with JS Park

CW/TW: depression, suicidal ideation

According to chaplain J.S. Park, people are ready for the conversation around grief and loss. Since you're here, I'm going to assume you're one of them.

I feel like I’ve been swimming in the waters of grief, loss, and lament for years now, and this conversation was a breath of fresh air after feeling like I was drowning in denial and dismissal.

We talk about what it’s like swimming in those deep waters for extended periods of time, the effect it can have on us and those around us, and how to keep going when things can seem hopeless.

🔗 link to full Show Notes and transcript
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The Noonday Demon by Andrew Solomon
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Transcript

JS Park  0:00  
You know, the number one thing I've been learning, people are ready for the conversation around grief and loss, if online platforms or books are any indication, people do want to talk about it and are ready to be honest. There's more and more openness around the conversation. People seem to be more well versed than I've ever seen talking about grief and being vulnerable and open and not shaming one another.

Brian Lee  0:26  
Welcome to episode number four of the Broken to Beloved podcast. I hope to provide you with practical resources through compassionate conversations to grow in trauma awareness, set up safeguarding practices to prevent or avoid future trauma and move toward healing and wholeness. I'm your host, Brian Lee, and I'm so glad you're here today. We're talking with JS Park about how we can learn to deal with grief and loss. Sometimes it looks like losing a loved one, sometimes it's the loss of a dream or something that'll never happen. It can look like losing relationships or communities or control of our bodies or even our dignity. I came across Joon's Instagram account sometime around 2020 and I was struck by what I call his typewriter therapy, short lines and phrases on scraps of paper that deeply resonated with me. It led to reading his book The voices we carry, which led to me reaching out to him. He became one of our 2024 assignment speakers, and has been a trusted voice in my life when it comes to dealing with the hard things that life throws at us. Joon is a hospital chaplain, published author and viral blogger. He's an interfaith chaplain at a level one trauma center, and he's often referred to as a grief catcher or therapist. His role includes grief counseling, attending every death trauma in cold blue staff care and supporting end of life care, and he also served for three years as a chaplain at one of the largest non profit charities for the homeless on the East Coast. JS Park has an MDiv, a sixth degree black belt, and is the author of the voices we carry, and his newest book, as long as you need, which released just this past April. And so without further ado, here is my conversation with our friend JS Park. Joon, welcome to the Broken to Beloved podcast. Thanks for being here!

JS Park  2:06  
Brian, thank you for being here. I got to say right up front, you're one of my favorite people.

Brian Lee  2:10  
Oh my goodness.

JS Park  2:10  
And, no, you really are, and you've been so kind, and you have been so consistent in my own faith and platform and all of it, you've just been super kind. So I appreciate you. And you know, I have to, I have to name this right away. It is rare for me. It is sadly rare that two Asian American men get to sit together. It's true to talk about, yeah, you know, religious abuse, spiritual trauma and grief and mental health and our feelings. Yeah, so Brian, yeah, you know, I can name a few, like Pastor, Dave Gibbons, I got to, you know, chat with him. And James Paik, who is a great musician there, Ron Yap, who's at Mental Health CEO. Just name dropping some great Asian American men to follow. But yeah, I got to chat with them, and I'm probably missing a few, but for you and I to sit down together, I cherish it. I relish in it. I'm so glad that we get the chat together. So Brian, thank you for inviting me to be in your space.

Brian Lee  3:18  
Of course, it is such an honor. And thank you very, very kind. Your book released is it May?

JS Park  3:26  
It was April 16. I think we wanted to get right ahead of you know the AANHPI Heritage Month and Mental Health Awareness Month.

Brian Lee  3:37  
Yeah, and it's been a heck of a tour. You have been in every online space. You've done multiple Instagram lives. I mean, you went to New York and you've been on TV. You've been in newspapers and local news, international or national news. What have you been hearing in response to your book? And then the follow up to that is, what have you been learning? Because I know you're constantly learning something.

JS Park  4:02  
Yeah, you know the number one thing I've been learning, and this is even outside of the book too. People are ready for the conversation around grief and loss. They want to have that conversation. And as much as there is like a social and cultural suppression of talking about grief and emotions and mental health and loss. I think there are two conversations happening. Really. There is sort of the the knee jerk reflex that kind of, oh, we don't talk about that. Let's not go negative. Keep the past in the past. Stay strong. You'll be all right. Don't cry. Everything happens for a reason, all those things that suppress any mention of grief, quote, unquote negativity. But then, if online platforms or books are any indication, people do want to talk about it and are ready to be honest. And so you know a book like this, and. There are many books like this coming out in the last few years. This has been a bigger topic, even we're seeing in mainstream Disney movies and TV shows, yeah, dealing with grief and trauma, intergenerational trauma, and also what is a good inheritance and what is passing on, like, you know, something good to the future, next generation, all of those things, there's more and more openness around the conversation. So I'm finding Brian that when I go to a place and I get to chat about the book, or when I you know, message with someone or their comments, people seem to be more well versed than I've ever seen, talking about grief and being vulnerable and open and not shaming one another.

JS Park  5:43  
Now is, does the stigma still exist? Absolutely. I mean, mental health has been more openly talked about in the last, I want to say, two decades. Yet this the stigma still exists, you know, yeah, and probably will for for, you know, quite a while. And true, it's also true about trauma. I would say the last decade there's been more and more talk about, you know, trauma informed care and the imprint of trauma, and what it does to us, and resilience, all those kinds of things. But now I'm really seeing how there's, like, a better literacy. There's more people willing to share their own story, the first book signing that I did in Orlando, Florida, I think about a dozen people came, maybe 15, and when we did Q and A, we went over time, because every single person shared about their loss and all the ways in which they could and could not process it. And even people who had losses from like, 10 to 20 years ago, wow, were like, it still feels like day one. You know, some days I'm okay, and other days, there's, there's, it just washes over me like a wave. And, you know, it went over time, because people, it's like, they were carrying it and holding it, wanted this space, and it almost became this group therapy session, and I was getting nervous because of the bookstore owner. I wanted to honor their space too, you know, in their time, but they were also, they the employees and stuff. They were almost sitting in on it and watching as well, and gave me all the time that I needed. I think they stayed right up until closing. So all that to say, that is the thing that I'm seeing. And, you know, maybe I'm biased, because those are the circles that I run in. So certainly that could be anecdotal, but I'm seeing all over the world, you know, Brian, people are returning to the roots of being able to speak openly about grief. Because, you know, the suppression of grief is sort of a newer and more modern invention. It wasn't always the case. An ancient tradition and culture was much more open about grief and approaching death, and now we are returning to the roots of engaging with What does death mean for us, and what does it mean to remember and honor our losses. So as hard as it is, I'm glad and grateful to see it.

Brian Lee  8:05  
Wow. That's Wow. It's funny because I'm I'm feeling all kinds of things just hearing that. I'm so grateful that people seem ready to have the conversation, and it's such a welcome thing to hear. And at the same time, I recognize that when you say that mental health has been having its moment for the last two decades, my brain thinks oh, 1980 was 20 years ago, but no 2000 is 20 years ago. And then for trauma to you know, be talked about more over the last 10 years. It's like, yes, it has this incredible history. And at the same time, it feels like it's still just now starting to catch momentum and have its moment. And this story of hearing people who are just desperate to tell their own stories and share their grief. And I'm trying to think of the quote I can't find it right now. You may use it in your book. Is it Zora Neale Hurston talks about just the needing to get your story out there, right?

JS Park  9:05  
Yeah.

Brian Lee  9:05  
And I think of even in my own story, of hearing my parents and their story running from North Korea, right, trying to get as far as they can south and hearing some of my dad's own trauma that only comes out in drips here and there, and I'm just like, I'm thirsty for it every time. It's like, I want to know more, just to hear about your history, my history, all these things and this trauma that we carry with us throughout our entire lives, that is just looking for an outlet. I'm so grateful that people seem to want it more, and at the same time recognize that there are still a lot of people out there who are really resistant to it, and I think it's for those reasons that I'm really grateful for your work and for your book and for what you're doing.

Brian Lee  9:56  
There are so many people in this community who, people who are struggling with their faith for so many different reasons, right? Some of them have experienced spiritual abuse. Others have been told that their grief is just taking too long, like we were told that for so like when, when we entered our last church, the short story is it was the church that one of our best friends was attending, and then she passed away, and through a long series of events, we ended up going there to work, knowing that she would never be there. So there was just grief tangled up in the whole thing. And every time her name would come up, it's like, Oh, are you still talking about that? Or are you still thinking about that? Oh, you're not over that yet. It's like, no. It's one like, I don't know that you ever get over something like that, right?

Brian Lee  10:37  
Some people are told or made to feel that they don't belong because of identity, maybe political identity, whatever it is, you've made it really clear through your writing, your books, your Instagram, that everyone belongs and is loved. And I often see you share your quote, I refuse to refuse the refused. And I love that. Where does that posture come from for you?

JS Park  11:03  
Yeah, first, just want to lift up acknowledge thanks for sharing everything that you did you know just now about your parents, about the grief entangled in a place where you had a big loss. Because certainly, loss echoes within the walls you know of those with whom we are working alongside, who we have built life alongside, or even in your case, you know you were ready and prepared to work alongside.

JS Park  11:33  
So thanks for sharing all that, Brian, and yeah, you know to answer your question, can you say the question one more time again, Brian, I want to make sure I get sure I get it right. 

Brian Lee  11:43  
Sure. For people who, well, people are here for all kinds of reasons, you make it really clear that everyone belongs and everyone has a yes. So for people who are struggling with their faith and have been made to feel that they don't have a place, where does that posture come from for you.

JS Park  12:01  
Yeah, so I'll try not to make a short story longer, but, you know, I I grew up an atheist and I became a Christian. You know, discovered Christianity late in life, and when I did, I got into the church the Christian the American Christian church. Uh, assuming this is the place that will teach me to love more. This is the place that will teach me to open my arms and embrace the community, and we're going to be doing some great work together. And that was a optimistic and now, in hindsight, perhaps a naive hope. Unfortunately, you know, yeah. And in Korean, I've been called, you know, Soon Jin head, like gullible slash naive, you know, yeah. And I just wide eyed all the time. And, you know, the years have kind of roughened that just a little bit, but I still have that sort of central heart of I just come in optimistically. So when I did go in, then suddenly it felt like I was learning, you know, God loves everyone, but here are the groups of people that we have to hate in order to receive God's love. And it was this weird, backwards thing that I didn't understand. And so I remained in church ministry as almost like this undercover double agent.

JS Park  13:26  
You know, I believe that the pages of Scripture and the God of my understanding is one who receives all, embraces, all and all belong. And you know, the, you know, the moment in, is it Matthew 17? And I don't, I don't normally just Bible verse people, but you know, what I'm thinking of is the transfiguration, you know, when Jesus kind of just decides to show all his glory, and like a big fireworks display on top of the mountain, you know? And I think it's, it's Peter after Jesus basically just shows us, or Jesus shows his power. And, you know, it's like his lightning coming out of his body, essentially, you know. And Peter goes, Wow, it's so good here. Let's build a house. It's like the only thing he can say, you know, he's like shaking, trembling. He goes, Let's build a house. And I'm sure, you know, maybe the two brothers, was it, James and John, as they were going back down the mountain, were like, Hey, Peter, let's build a house and see how they're kind of cracking on. I'm like, What are you talking about, man, you know, so, like, you didn't have nothing else to say. But I like that. Peter said that because the word he uses tabernacle, and I think he's trying to say, you know, when we saw Jesus as he really, as he showed himself to us, and was vulnerable in all, in all his glory and power, I wanted to the first thing that I thought was to build a home here. This is where I want to stay. And I think of my faith in those terms as this is a place of belonging. A place where I feel safe, a place that, you know, maybe the source of all power. But that power is not over, it's with, you know.

JS Park  15:08  
And I think the American church, the evangelical church, there is a strain of it, a brand of it. In fact, I would say most of it is about exclusion. We find our identity by in group out group dynamics. And I had so much difficulty in it. And I think I was this undercover agent, but in being so, I was also somewhat complicit in the system in itself. And so there, I think a lot of folks, as I talked with them, one on one, who were like that, who still have a foot in the door and feel like it's my only way to love people who may not hear the message or who may not feel loved. So I was in that church ministry and system for about seven years, just trying to work against the current, and then decided I'm out, and interfaith chaplaincy is one of those places where I could be myself, where I could expand my arms as wide as possible, where being affirming, and yes, saying we should have open borders. And yes, saying that some of the political evangelical stuff is cultish, all of that was safe to say and to embody.

JS Park  16:18  
Yeah, so I think my heart and my calling and the way that I was, I think wanted to be for people because of the ways in which I did not receive when I was younger, amid so much abuse, you know, the trauma that I received, I wanted to be that kind of sounding board slash safe refuge for people as well, where people could say, hey, let's build a home here. Yeah. And that was Yeah. And so I think that was always a thing that I wanted, and I thought the church would have it. And I don't want to say all churches, don't, sure, but it's Yeah. But it's been my experience that sometimes the church system and ministry makes it harder. And why should it yeah and and yeah.

JS Park  17:07  
So I think it was I say this to my own shame, when I was in seminary and in church, there are opinions and views that I kept to myself, but I think people could pick up on some of the coded language that I used, or maybe just the way that I was. And so there would be random people who would, you know, share with me and come out to me. Or they would say, hey, the Bible doesn't make sense in this in this area. Or who would say, you know, my parents believe this and this politically or socially or culturally, those kinds of things. But Brian, I'll tell you that undercover game is exhausting. And, you know, yeah, trying to everybody has a choice to stay inside the system and make waves inside of it, you know, hope to make waves, or be outside of it and try to dismantle and change and rebuild from the ground up. And some people can do both. But man, Brian, I think I hit an expiration date. I just couldn't do it anymore. Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah. And so now I think, as of being in chaplaincy, I just proudly express all the views, you know, and everything that I am, values and, you know, my perspective and my beliefs that's all out there for everybody to see, and I want people to know, yeah, God is about safety and about refuge. You know, the world is already so hard, and God is a soft place to land.

Brian Lee  18:31  
Oh, man, thank you for sharing that. Then I share that desire with you. It's and at the same time, the, I guess the sadness and the grief that the church wasn't what you had hoped when you arrived. And I think that a lot of people, I'm making a big assumption here, that a lot of people in our community come from it from the other direction, where they started out in church and have found themselves moving away where you started as an atheist and found your way into the church, and I think that profoundly affects the way that our perspective is in what church could be or should be, or any of those things, or what we hope to find there. Yeah, and I think one of the things that we're trying to do here with broken the beloved, you know, we're trying to, I have a board retreat coming up this weekend as we're recording this, and one of the things we're doing is trying to clarify our values. And one of the ideas I have that isn't solidified is this idea of kindness and proximity, right? That it's the kindness of God that draws us, not judgment, not condemnation, not preaching, and it's proximity to people who are having lived experiences that help us to grow in our grace and compassion and empathy and help us not to be so exclusive or excluding, but to draw people in and to include them in the gospel and in the love of God that exists for every single person, regardless of who they are, where they are, what they've done and. Yeah, and so I just, I really appreciate you sharing that, yeah,

JS Park  20:05  
yeah. Thanks, Brian. I mean, it really boils down to, I was hoping the church would teach me to love more, and it seemed like it was saying love less. And I don't believe the heart of God is that way. Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah. And, and, yeah, I, you know, there, there are little things that I remember about all of that where, um, like in seminary, I should have known, I think Brian, I should have known where I was at. There all these red flags. But what's that saying when you wear rose tinted glasses, red flags just look like flags, you know? And and maybe growing up in an abusive home kind of changed my baseline and my perspective, because, you know, when you grow up in an abusive home, sometimes it just normalizes abuse for you, you know?

JS Park  20:56  
But I remember in seminary, I went to seminary around the time that President uh, Barack Obama was elected. So you can imagine, in Southeastern Baptist what all the people were saying at the time. You know, people can have different opinions and views about, you know, who, who to vote for. I don't begrudge anyone that, but, you know, there'd be sometimes a class that would get entirely derailed talking about Obama and, you know, yelling baby killer and then really close to San racial slurs, and I should have known them, you know, little things about church leadership and, you know, controlling the yeah and funding, and arguing about the color of paint on the walls, and then when I would try to visit the homeless ministry leadership, saying that's not what you're supposed to be doing. You know, you're supposed to be here in the office. And I thought, Well, what about both, you know, that kind of thing, yeah, yeah.

JS Park  21:48  
But all that to say, Brian, you know, anyone who is struggling right now and sort of in the in between, you know, working at a church in a ministry, or being part of a faith family in which you find yourself, it's not so much family after all, you know, there's there's this thing I'm seeing Brian and I almost started a research project on it, but then, you know, just life happened right, where the dogma that sometimes Folks of religion ascribe to publicly and what they believe privately. There's a wide disparity. Yeah, and, and you find out that there are some people who are completely subscribed to the dogma. You know that they're just all about it, all about the creed. And those are the people, very often, who, when they see people straying from the dogma will be the most abusive, will be the most toxic, can be the most harmful, because it's, you know, they have lifted up a letter of the law higher than their fellow human and then there are people who are just struggling, but they're afraid to say anything, because they're like, Well, I'm not sure that I agree with this. So the way that we're doing this is kind of harmful.

JS Park  23:00  
And then as soon as they say it, you know, the people who subscribe here, they're gonna, you know, come down on them. So when I was my first book, you know, I was with a more conservative evangelical publisher. As I was talking, I visited the publisher. I flew over there to say hello to the offices. Because, you know, now you can get a book published without meeting anybody, meeting any of your editors, or anything like that. It's all online, but I wanted to fly over there to meet everybody. And one by one, as I sat down, they all said the same thing, Brian, individually, they said, I'm not like the other people here, you know. And I just thought if they only all knew that about each other. It reminds me of Andrew Solomon's book noonday demon. He talks about depression, and he says he remembers there was a couple who both individually confided in him about their own depression, but they did not tell each other, and they said the other one doesn't know.

JS Park  24:01  
And I think there's some sort of hiddenness or secrecy around talking about all of this, that the stigma that still exists because people are afraid to go against what is the publicly stated dogma because of the threat of abuse or the threat of disconnection, of losing community. And so I'm totally taking a digression Brian, but I mean, there's something about that that's really scary and anxiety inducing. And so I say that this anyone who's listening, who's feeling that sort of cognitive dissonance, not just cognitive, but emotional dissonance, you know that you're in a community where you don't necessarily believe all the values, but you're there because you want the community so bad, and it feels good to be able to publicly say, Hey, here's the dogma that we all believe, and these are my safe people. I hope somebody listening watching would have the courage to say, I I don't need to you. Being here is not allowing me to be whole, and the community here, we're not really connected, and it's a false truce, yeah, yeah. And that's a hard thing, and I had to give that up, and it's not easy, and there's still grief around it, sure, yeah, yeah. But we choose our loneliness, you know, do we choose? Yeah.

Brian Lee  25:22  
Well, I don't think that's off track at all, you know? I think it ties right in where I was going to go next anyway, is just kind of going back to your book. You break it down into four parts, right? Losing spirit, loss of our future dreams and a whole shaped God, losing our mind, mental health and self worth, losing our body, autonomy and humanity. And that last section of losing heart, which is losing connection and losing our loved ones. And I was just rereading big chunks of it last night and this morning, and this idea that, Oh man, you say, which loneliness is the better one to be lonely with others, alone by yourself? Is it better to grieve the familiar alone or grieve alone with the familiar. And then you go on to say the cost of losing myself is far higher than the cost of losing people who never knew me. But anytime I picked someone else over me, I lost two people, them and myself. And you talk about this loss of connection with people, the loss of relationships. It's, there's so much wrapped up in there, and I think that's where a lot of us feel like we are,

JS Park  26:28  
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, I was Brian, to be truthful. I was really willing to pay the cost of myself to have community, Yeah, same. And I think a lot, yeah, I think a lot of people are, you know, we want the feeling of movement, but not necessarily a risk connection. So it's a hard thing, because it is, can you be your own companion? And that's hard because some, you know, I don't think that everybody needs to agree on everything in order to stay in community. I think there can be even severe disagreements.

JS Park  27:07  
You know, I'm naturally just a bridge builder, and so there are people that I wouldn't vote the same or think the same, or raise my kids the same, but I'm still willing to stay in community with them, because we're human. We there's there's something where I want to be in connection with you, because I see your dignity. I see your sacredness, you know. But then there are people who truly cannot embody themselves, who they want to be, their gifting, their calling, their identity, is considered dangerous or toxic to the community itself, and in that case, they cannot embody themselves. And one of the things that I see the most at a deathbed, and almost nine years now, being a chaplain, has sat with hundreds, if not 1000s, who have died if, if my patient is able to talk, because not everyone can, but if they're conscious, if they're awake and alert when they share their regrets, it's very much often about I was following everyone else's vision for my life, yeah, and I didn't get to be who I wanted to be, yeah. And, you know, sometimes that's because of resources and the system, and that's why we want to change those things, because not everybody had the capacity, but some people chose not to be who they wanted to be out of fear of losing parents, losing community, losing the people around their religious community.

JS Park  28:29  
And so sometimes I am seeing a person for the first time as they really are, because they show me all of themselves and at a deathbed, this is what I can do as a chaplain and a human and the thing, the hauntedness and the hurt that I feel, is, if only they could have done that sooner. Why? Why? Why did they have to wait? You know? And so that's a hard thing that I think loneliness, a lot of it is a choice. But then sometimes it's just fear that is created by, concocted by conjured by communities that do create this type of follow this dogma and creed and doctrine, or else you're out. It's the in group and out group dynamic. And so yeah, I think when people begin to choose the loneliness of being our own companion, is when we can start creating these safe communities. And so it's a two fold thing, the communities that exclude need to be dismantled, and we also in our own selves, we get to choose the grief, you know, the grief of staying and never being connected with anyone, yeah, or the grief of leaving for a season of being alone, but then building something that we can call our own. Yeah, yeah. What a difficult, impossible choice that is to make.

Brian Lee  29:46  
Yeah, it really is. You know, I do a lot of work with self awareness and emotional intelligence, and I often point people back to 1 Corinthians 12 and this idea of the Body of Christ and how we're specifically and. Um, intentionally made to be different, and how it has to be a good thing. Because, of course, a femur is going to think that the thumb is doing it wrong, right, or see things fundamentally differently, because that's not your function. And I think when, like you're saying, when we can make the conscious choice and effort to see things from someone else's point of view, or just even to recognize that not everyone wants to do things the way that we do, and that's a good thing. It gets us, you know, such a longer way than where we are now. For those who are grieving the loss of those relationships and connections, you also say this, you may not have gotten to say goodbye to the people who would not go with you, and I believe that in some measure, you can still have the funeral for those who would not go and grieving those you had to leave.

Brian Lee  30:48  
We have so many people, and me personally, I'm sure you two who have lost relationships when leaving our relationship behind, sometimes a church or even a whole faith behind, we lose our entire communities almost overnight, like you said earlier, for people, for churches in place that say, Oh, we're family here, until you find out you're not, right? Yeah, this is a kind of loss that so often gets overlooked or missed, right? And I'm so grateful that you included it in the book. What do you think having that kind of a funeral looks like for people who are looking for some kind of closure, because relationships just fizzle overnight, and it's like you're left with this. I just don't know what happened. I thought we were friends, or I thought we were this, or whatever it was. What does that look like for you? Or how have you seen other people process that?

JS Park  31:36  
Yeah, you know, I think Brian what people are afraid of maybe talking about because they're maybe afraid of looking like a bad person, or they're not handling it well, is when that sort of loss happens, you know, even overnight, where it just feels like I have community one day and then suddenly I don't. There is, for many of us, a very, very deep rage, and it's a rage born of pain, so much anger, you know, a lament like a almost. I can't believe this is happening, looking at the entire situation as just unfathomably absurd and unfair.

JS Park  32:23  
And I think there needs to be space and room to talk about the anger around that, because there is, there is this false narrative about victims, those who are whistleblowers, those who are people who have been hurt and share their story, who they need to be perfect in the sense that their tone has to be calm and controlled, you know, mild mannered, very even, and make sure they're articulate, yeah, and if they're not, if they show even the slightest hint of anger or, you know, the phrasing is off, because they sound like they're resentful or bitter or cynical, then they're completely invalidated. But anyone, anyone who has been traumatized, hurt, wounded, there's there's never going to be a perfect victim. There will never be a perfect testimony or sharing of the story of pain, and there's got to be room for that. And so you know, finding that safe community, that or even just one person, whether that's a therapist or a lifelong friend, somebody in your family, who can hear that and handle that and hold that, hold the anger, being able to process.

JS Park  33:40  
This is why I'm so upset, because of the injustice of this, because those institutions, those communities that I had to leave, they may never be held accountable. They may never apologize to me, they may never offer reparations. They may never offer or hear my side of the story, all of those little injustices, quote unquote little they build up, and they're going to be moments where we want to fly into a rage, but in order to, you know, look courteous, because, quote unquote polite is right, we suppress that and hold that in and so I want to say at least that much Brian, that Part of grieving is, is the anger at the unfairness of it, and finding room, finding community, finding even just one safe person where we can say, you know, I'm really, really, really upset and angry and just in a deep rage about this. I can't believe that this happened, you know, months, years, seasons, that I invested the sacrifices that I've made, yeah, the time that I put in the heart, that I put into it, and then they all turn away overnight. There's a deep rage there.

JS Park  34:50  
And you know, with I've had a consistent therapist now, what my last therapist just retired, very sadly, but I got a new therapist. Now she's Korean American, and what I'm so thankful for is that they have such wide open arms for the broad range of emotion. Because grief isn't just sadness, being hurt isn't just sorrow and anguish. Can also look like today. I'm going to find joy in the day, you know. And so sometimes when you see those people who are like defendants in a courtroom, and as they're leaving, you know, the media will catch pictures of them smiling and say, Oh, they don't really they're not really sad, they're not really hurt, you know, yeah, just because they're smiling, right? But victims of pain also are allowed their joy and they're smiling. Depression can still look like laughter. You know, all of these things can coexist and be true at the same time, and so there needs to be room to hold the extremity of these emotions and to be able to be safe with them.

Brian Lee  35:53  
Yeah, wow. Thank you. I think feeling that anger is so important. I don't remember if you said this before we started recording or after? But just the idea that we're able to be here and to access and share emotions freely as two Asian men is like a miracle. It's like lightning in a bottle. And I had an appointment this morning with my counselor, and just talking through those kinds of things, like, well, how are you feeling? What are you processing? It's like, that's what I've been working on a lot, and learn to name those things, especially, I think, when we've been taught or conditioned for so long that anger is a bad or wrong emotion that we're not supposed to have it. And to go back to something you said earlier about the church, is just like this desire for belonging is so strong that it often outweighs our desire to love or be with ourselves, that we sacrifice ourselves at the cop for the cost of belonging, which is why it can be so devastating when we lose that sense of community, right, or when we lose those relationships. So I just want to thank you again for for doing that work and for writing so clearly, so beautifully about all of those things, and even that remembrance is a resurrection that just taking the time to honor those relationships, honor those losses, is a resurrection of whatever that thing was.

JS Park  37:17  
Yeah, you know Brian, I think back to my first ministry that I was at. It ended so badly, and I have never been back to that church, and I never will, and I think of the stories that were told about me, because it seems like when it comes to institutions, particularly religious institutions, there is when people go or when relationships are done, it's hard to finish well, because of so much of the toxicity around it, you know? So it's almost always like this traumatic ending. And, you know, I had that occur, and there was, I...the reason that I sort of played into the story is because I didn't want other people to look bad. So I said, OK, I'll fall on the sword. But you know, what ended up happening is I just kept doing my best to embody and honor the calling that I was given. Didn't always do it perfectly, but tried to pursue that passionately. And I think in doing that, some of those relationships that I lost later in my life ended up coming back around and messaging me or reaching out to me and, you know, very curiously, wanting to know the story or they had heard, you know, that wasn't true, or something like that. There were moments when I got to share my story or get the apology, yeah, or people coming back around and feeling, you know, not that it should matter, but me feeling a little bit vindicated, you know, that the real story was there, yeah.

JS Park  38:50  
So I say all that to say, yeah. I mean, we, I do miss a lot of those relationships, you know. And I think anyone would even in the most harmful of communities, sure, especially when it comes to, you know, family. You know, even parents who are severely abusive, when we draw those boundaries and cut them off, it's not that we necessarily wanted to. They're still our parents. You know, there's still our family, and so certainly we're going to miss them, even the things that we couldn't stand, you know, even the things that we didn't like, Yeah, but I knew that the way that I could honor those losses and honor those memories is to continue embodying myself the best that I could, yeah. And, you know, yeah, yeah, I I miss so much about it.

JS Park  39:43  
Brian, to be truthful, even just thinking about it and talking about it, I feel it in my body, because there's there, there was so much good in it, and I love the people in the church, and really it was just, it's always just like, three or four people that are like, you know, I. Yeah, that, yeah, that, that kind of rot the well, a little bit, yeah, yeah, but yeah, you know, I absolutely loved it, and I remember it now, and I process it with fondness. I think of even those leaders who were traumatizing and abusive. I look at them kind of just with sadness, and, you know, I'm so glad that I got to continue on in ministry and reconnect with some of those people and for them to be able to come around and say, you know, I always knew something was off about the you know, when you when you went there, I knew that it wasn't you, you know, yeah, yeah, to hear that is very vindicating. So yeah, I honor, I honor those losses by honoring myself the best I can. Yeah,

Brian Lee  40:50  
I appreciate that, and I appreciate that you come at it with a perspective of both and because I think there are a lot of people who are in this process of losing these things and taking the route of either or that it has to be this thing or this thing, that it was all bad or all good, and I can't have they can't struggle with that tension of both, right? So I appreciate that you share that. As we wrap up, you've shot, you've shared rather publicly about your own struggles with your loss of faith, with continued loss of faith with depression. First of all, so glad that you're still here with us. So glad that you're doing better today, and as much as you're willing to share or talk about it, what keeps you coming back to faith, to choose life, to keep going. I mean, you're a therapist, right? You hold these things. You hear this, you hear you hold loss and pain every single day, and somehow you find it to keep going and to keep showing up. What keeps you going for people who are listening, who don't know how to do that?

JS Park  41:58  
Yeah, Thanks, Brian. Thank you for your kind words too. Yeah, three, four weeks ago. I mean, my mental health just really took a dive, just a really bad crisis, and I've been managing depression for pretty well for the last few years, and then suddenly, just a lot of things converged together. Maybe it was a new book, plus baby, you know, not being able to sleep, doing media rounds and things like that, and then work, just being as intense as ever. All of it just converged into this bad cocktail where, you know, I was feeling, I guess, you know, something can happen to you Monday through Saturday, and you're fine. But then on Sunday, just on that one particular moment, you know, it just, it just gets right through the cracks, you know? And I can say I'm still struggling a bit, but each day I'm trying to find the good, finding good moments, and sitting here with you certainly is one of them. But yeah, you know, I can give you like, this isn't a simple, clean answer, Brian, yeah, but that's okay, yeah. And, you know, I've gotten literally hundreds of messages online because I shared publicly about it. Sometimes people think, oh, that's like getting attention, but this is an online world now. We're connected, and I'm really, so grateful for online community, you know, because it's truly I feel like I'm not alone. And truly I feel like people are kind, and I haven't gotten a single unkind message about it, which is unusual, because often

Brian Lee  43:36  
I can Yeah, the trolls are out there, for sure.

JS Park  43:38  
Oh yeah, I get plenty of stuff like that, but lately I haven't and, yeah, you know, some of the messages that I'm getting are advice or things that you know are helpful. And some of those things are like, you know you want to keep going for your children. You want to keep going for your family. You know you want to keep going because of your calling. You know, you've been through something like this before, and you know, you've made it. And, you know, the the intervening years, I'm sure, were good, you know, there was good in it. Keep going, because there will be good, yeah, all these things that are just really, really good advice. And then I got one or two messages like this, because, you know, when we start thinking in terms of, I'm gonna live for my wife, my family, my kids, gonna live for the work that I do, those are all true things and really, really good. But a couple of messages I got were, you know, you can keep going for your family, but or your work, or the things you do, or because you bring good in the world, but I hope that you keep going for you. And that was, yeah, and, you know, I it took, it's hard to wrap my brain and hard around that, you know, keep going for me. What does that mean? You know, keep going for me.

JS Park  45:02  
But I think what they were trying to say is that my value and my dignity and it shouldn't, it shouldn't be contingent on the contribution that I make or productivity, or what I mean to other people or to the field. You know, it should be that I have intrinsic and inherent value in myself, regardless, and that whether I had a family or not, whether I had children or not, whether, you know, I'm working at the hospital today and not tomorrow, that I keep going for me.

JS Park  45:30  
And I guess I'm imagining this 10 year old me, you know, looking at me today, and what I would tell 10 year old me if he felt the same that I do today, and what I would tell him, you know, to keep going. And what I tell him, you know, keep going because your family loves you, or keep going because you're going to be doing these things one day, or, you know, writing books, working in the hospital, you're gonna have kids. But in the end, I hope that that 10 year old me also knows. You know, keep going for you. It's for you too. You know because you have value, because you are in yourself, sacred and dignified, yeah, and worthy of love. So it's not either or, like you were saying, Brian, it's both and and it's true like I do want to keep going for all these good and beautiful things, I realized that I am very lucky, that I have community and therapists and resources and that I could do good work, you know. And at the same time, trying to remember I am valuable. I am worthy of love. It's the hardest thing when you're in a fog of depression, you know? It's the hardest thing when the world feels like it's all ripping apart at the seams, you know, yeah, but yeah, I think those couple of messages that said that they helped me reframe a little bit, you know, that there's so much good to live for, but part of that good is myself too.

Brian Lee  47:06  
Absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing that so vulnerably with us, and what a beautiful way to wrap up. Yeah, so validating. And I hope for anyone who's listening, just that you hear that that it's worth holding on, and it's worth the keep going. It's worth one more day, just for you, not for what you do, not for what you've contributed, not for the work, for what you have, but just because you are you, and you are beautiful, and you are beloved, and you're worthy of being here. June. Thank you so much. If people want to connect with you. Where should they go?

JS Park  47:42  
I'm on all the things, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, yeah, all the stuff, JS, Park. So yeah. And you know, I do respond to comments messages. I'm happy to engage with you and chat with you. Yes, you do,

Brian Lee  47:57  
everybody. Please go get a copy of his latest book, "As Long As You Need: Permission to Grieve" everywhere books are sold. If you want to support independent bookstores, go to bookshop.org or walk into an actual bookstore. If you really want to support go to your local library and request a copy. We'll provide links for all the things we talked about in the show notes. Joon, thank you again, so much for being with us today.

JS Park  48:18  
Brian, thank you so much gentleness and peace to you.

Brian Lee  48:22  
Man, wasn't that a good conversation? If you enjoyed it as much as I did, be sure to head over to Instagram, follow JS and say thanks for being on the show. If you're looking for links, resources, transcripts and more, you can find the show notes on our website at brokentobeloved.org. Subscribe or follow the show to get new episodes automatically. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a rating and review or share on your socials and tag us. I'd love to see who's listening and see your takeaways.

Brian Lee  48:49  
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Brian Lee  49:24  
Coming up next on the show, we have Laura Barringer, Cait West, Tim Whitaker, and many more. Thank you so much for taking the time out of your day to listen. I hope it's been helpful. Here's to moving toward healing and wholeness together. I'll see you next time you.